The political consultants who advise the GOP favor lower turnouts, presumably because the higher one is on the economic ladder the more likely one is to vote which means lower overall turnout increases GOP percentages. Among factors leading to this is salaried employees who take time off to vote are not penalized while hourly wage earners often lose income when they take time off work to vote. Similarly the Dems are advised to shoot for high turnouts because it generally means more working class, elderly, poor, and young voters who tend to trend Dem-ward.

Thus the GOP, especially its right wing, has been mounting various efforts to decrease voter participation. These range from purging voter lists of registered voters based on questionable data (see Katherine Harris as Sec. of State in Florida in 2000) to distributing material that indicates voting might lead to arrest (see Virginia Senate race 2006) and finally to efforts to crack down on fraudulent voter registration. In elections since 2002 there have been roughly fifty known cases of voters casting multiple ballots due to fraudulent registration, hardly likely to have much impact on election outcomes.

Last night while changing channels I caught John Stossel doing a piece on efforts to encourage younger voters become registered and vote. He was essentially arguing that the best thing they could do for democracy was NOT to vote due to their being insufficiently informed about the issues. One guest came close to calling for voting to no longer be a right and responsibility for all citizens of voting age, but rather that voting should become an earned privilege that would require passing some type of examination.

If one fears that we are being overrun by hordes of immigrants who are being illegally slipped into the voter lists, swinging the outcome of elections to the left, one gets agitated by reports of voter registration fraud. If one believes the elite right are intent on maintaining a grip on their power by suppressing votes, especially by working class, elderly, poor, and young voters, one gets agitated by the chilling effect these overblown efforts to find examples of voter registration fraud can have on actual registration and voting.

As a free speech advocate, I believe the best answer to hate speech and various expressions I might consider dangerous or misguided is not censorship, but speaking out against them with counterarguments and alternatives. Similarly I believe more eligible citizens should register and vote, not fewer, and thus applaud efforts to that end and dislike efforts to keep people from voting. As someone who has never belonged to a political party I also believe we need to move to instant runoff voting to break the hold the two major parties have on the political process.

Posted by: Chris White on October 11, 2008 11:11 AM

Mr Emrerson, I did respond to your points; I am able to pack a lot into a few words; read my response and try again.

You don't know how many fraudulent votes are cast, and govt. prosecutions on the matter are not something that would give me comfort one way or the other.

Now, how about if I take your vote away. Come now Mr Emerson, you glorious shit. I can bury you in data that your vote does not matter at all, so give it up, old boy. Will you? It has never mattered in a race, so... why not?

One case of voter fraud cancels out someone's vote. Let us see if your cavalier attitude applies when it is your vote?

This is the basis of democracy; it is not stealing chewing gum at 7-Eleven. That is why we take any infraction seriously -- even if it does not matter to the outcome ---repeat -- even if it does not matter to the outcome. Do you get that?

Also, these groups are gettting federal dollars to help with the fraud, which complicates matters further -- giving people the real impression that they are being disenfranchised by both criminals and THEIR GOVT., which makes it a much more serious case.

You should be screaming for these ACORN nuts to be put in prison. We all should --whether it affects any actual political outcome or not. Instead, you want to play lawyer games. Pathetic.

sN

Posted by: sN on October 11, 2008 3:45 PM

sN, at this point it's really up to you to show that a significant amount of actual voting fraud occurred. There's been a tremendous effort both by Republican-affiliated organizations as well as the US Department of Justice and many state Departments of Justice to find it, and they've pretty much failed. That's enough for me, and I don't see why it's not enough for you -- there was no coverup, because the investigators strongly desired to find fraud.. There may be a lot of fraud in your imagination, but things in your imagination can't be prosecuted.

The chance that there a big chunk of secret voter fraud out there is close to zero.

Posted by: John Emerson on October 11, 2008 8:04 PM

OK, Mr Emerson, we will never agree. My problem is I find any tampering with the system to be a serious crime -- that includes phony registrations. I would think that in the sensitive world of voting, both sides would agree to take all infractions seriously.

One last thing, if ACORN does want to be in the vote fraud busines (Pat Caddell -Democrat Pollster---everyone in Washington knows ACORN is in the vote fraud business)- If ACORN or someone else wants to commit voter fraud, they have to start with phony registrations. So your argument is so far these groups are not effective at it. So, yes, let us all wait until they are effective. That makes perfect sense...in an insane world.

sN

Posted by: sN on October 12, 2008 12:29 AM

sN - Where is your righteous anger at the efforts to keep people from voting? Where is your righteous anger at the efforts to use easily hackable Diebold voting machines? Where is your righteous anger at overzealous efforts to purge voters from the rolls? Where is your righteous anger at the disparity in the ratio of voting machines between districts that have led to excessive waiting in districts that trend Dem rather than Pub?

If repeated investigations by DoJ and others who for partisan reasons want to find fraudulent voter registration and fraudulent voting have failed repeatedly to find any significant evidence that it is taking place, why is this a major issue for you?

Posted by: Chris White on October 12, 2008 9:00 AM

I'm not really trying to persuade you, sN. There are more people than you and me reading this thread.

Caddell plays a Democrat on Fox but it's been a long, long time since Democrats accepted him as one.

You have not responded in any way to what I said about the Republican strategy of voter discouragement, which uses multiple legal and illegal tactics to reduce turnout, especially in Democratic areas, nor have you responded to the fact that the hooplah about voter fraud is part of this Republican strategy, nor have you responded to the fact that the fraud in these cases is fraud against ACORN, which ACORN helps prosecute, nor have you responded to the fact that an enormous effort by the Republican Department of Justice found a very few very small cases to prosecute.

And don't you ever call anyone partisan again.

Posted by: John Emerson on October 12, 2008 10:18 AM

The question here seems to be: Which party is more corrupt? The answer is neither. Both parties engage in fraud, and I'd wager they both do it to the same degree.

We're in the midst of one of the most godawful financial scandals in the history of the country. Both parties participated in bringing us to this castastrophe. Both the Clinton and the Bush administrations pushed for sub-prime mortgages for minorities who had no hope of ever paying back their debts. Clinton did it to get black votes. Bush did it to get hispanic votes.

I worked for a decade for a corporate law firm that played a huge role in orchestarting and funding Democratic candidates. When it came to campaign contributions, they paid equally into the Democratic and Republican parties. This experience purged me of the belief that one or the other parties is the party of the "little guy." Since my lawyer bosses were among the richest people in the world, the experience also disabused me of the notion that the Democratic Party is the party of working people.

When it comes to illegal immigration, which may be at the core of voter fraud issues, both parties are equally detestable. On a personal level, both Obama and McCain advocate unfettered illegal immigration. There is no difference.

Both presidential candidates are equally unattractive. Both are up to their necks in the current financial grand theft. How the posters to this site find something to differentiate between the two, or between the two parties... well, it beats me.

Posted by: Shouting Thomas on October 12, 2008 11:32 AM

Amazingly this is one of the times I find ST saying something I agree with and applaud. Our opinions about what we might best do to solve these problems may be vastly different but we heartily agree on one fundamental point, both major parties are creatures of the same elite.

I resent the position we have been put in as citizen voters. Our only viable choice is between the two major parties. This is merely deciding which faction of the status quo elite will be given the gavel. This is why my quixotic political campaign is for instant runoff voting.

Rather than tossing out any other bones of contention, let me offer ST a beer ... local microbrew, of course.

Posted by: Chris White on October 12, 2008 12:30 PM

I'd wager they both do it to the same degree.

That's what most Republicans think. "We're no worse than they are" is their bottom line.

The financial meltdown is not the result of home loans to minorities. It's the result of leveraging bad loans, only a small percentage of which were made by Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac.

Posted by: John Emerson on October 12, 2008 1:24 PM






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