How true about voices, Moira. But voice education was part of "finishing" a young woman, wasn't it? Gone, gone, gone. A young woman used to strive to become "accomplished", often mastering an art, becoming well-read, learning how to sustain conversation, and of course, how to speak like a "lady". Which is to say in dulcet, preferably lowish, modulated tones. Gone, gone, gone.

Who has beautiful voices? My unrequited love in high school days, and good friend since then whom I mentioned above, Bonna, has a voice of such musicality, such expressiveness, such nuance, that she draws people to her everywhere she goes, men and women both. She can say my name, "Pat" with so many subtleties of tone, pitch and dynamics that she can express anything from fondness to say, the somewhat exasperated wisdom of a woman who has known me for the last 35 years. She is also one of the few people I allow to call me "Pat", the rest having to make do with "Patrick". She is a radical feminist without a cell of hate anywhere in her. And yet, she described her reaction to a group of Ultra-Orthodox Jews (Satmarers, I believe) in Jerusalem setting fires to garbage to protest a gay pride march, this way: "I just couldn't believe they were my people". Soft words, softly spoken, and yet conveying the closest to hatred I've ever heard her speak. Such mastery of tone. The kind of voice that carries through a space without ever rising to a shout. Wonderfully Jewish intonations, too. You could tell she's Jewish simply by hearing her voice on tape. It would take maybe ten words, and you'd know. Sigh. I love her.

Famous people: some actors, of course. Richard Burton as the First Voice in Dylan Thomas's Under Milk Wood:

To begin at the beginning
It is spring moonless night
In the small town starless and bible-black
The cobbled streets silent and
The hunched courtiers-and-rabbits wood
Limping invisible down to
The sloe black. Slow. Black. Crowblack.
Fishing boat-bobbing sea.

But he's a guy. My poet friend Vivian, (not famous yet, alas) has an unpretentiously sophisticated Montreal english voice, low and husky and beautifully rounded. She flattens every man (and woman) into instant attitude of worship every time she opens her (also very beautifully shaped) mouth. Her French is adorable, especially the way she says, "Bye Bye" using the English words but with a French accent, Bi-eh Bi-eh. She once referred to a famous Quebecoise chanteuse song, and I fell even more in love with her than I was at the time:

Bye Bye Mon Cowboy

And my heart was hers. Famous, dammit! Topic, please!

Leonard Nimoy as Mister Spock, especially in a wonderfully intense episode of the show, the Doomsday Machine:

It appears the creature [pause] is pursuing us.

Said in tones of dry, shapely, masculine calm in the face of, well, a Doomsday Machine about a hundred miles long hunting them down. Oh, Nimoy's wonderful Spock voice gave rise to the worst single sentence I ever read. It was in a Star Trek novelization (I know, I'm not getting any sympathy here, but I haven't asked for any, okay?). Spock is saying something as he and others are walking across the surface of a purple-sanded and -gravelled planet:

Spock's voice buttered the crunchy purple landscape.

Ah, the laughter when I read that cleansed my soul of years of sadness. It also gave me regular bowel movements for the next six months!

Paul Scofield. Candace Bergen (I don't care! She can't act, but her voice is great!). Lyle Lovett, singing.

Oh, and me when I'm in the late stages of a cold, when my throat is raw, and my voice is all low and rumbly and rounded and apparently quite yummy to the ladies. I've had several women tell me to go into phone sex, become a gigolo, go into radio, and other things. Some just called it my "panty remover" voice.

I think I'll apprentice myself to Charlton Griffin. See if I can produce that voice at will. Charlton? You taking students?

Posted by: PatrickH on August 7, 2008 9:02 PM

MB:
I really can't exaggerate how bizarre and surprising I find this. It just wasn't the case when I was a single guy. A few guys were maybe born winners, and a few guys were maybe born losers. But -- I dunno -- 80% or 90% of guys were basically out there getting dates, moving forward in life (if only a bit), and probably eventually settling down with a girl.

it's unpleasant to think that humans can be categorized by their worth in the one way that matters most -- their attractiveness to the opposite sex -- but there it is.
obviously there isn't a bright line separating alpha from beta male. like most human psychosocial characteristics, it's a continuum, though bottom heavy on the beta side, sliding down ultimately to the lesser omegas (think homeless bums pissing themselves). this is the way darwinian nature intended it -- woman date up, meaning that a few guys at the top get more than theei share while a bunch at the bottom don't contribute to the next generation. men are expendable, and if it weren't so we'd still be swinging from trees. so pick your poison -- evolutionary cruelty, or dystopia?

of those 80 or 90% of guys who were out there getting dates and eventually settling down, were there not variations in the quality (read: beauty) of the women who chose them? what about variation in their numbers of dates? the world isn't some big equalist wet dream. 80% of guys got dates, sure, but the top 10% of those 80% were banging more and better looking women than the the bottom 10% of thoe 80%.

zdeno:
I wonder how much of this was a conscious effort by the eras more "alpha" men?

alpha males have made out like bandits from the sexual revolution. for the average beta, the alpha male-strident lesbian feminist alliance was a disaster. and champagne victory glasses have been clinking ever since.

ps: figleaf has no understanding.

Posted by: roissy on August 7, 2008 11:38 PM

What's wrong with the word "themself", Dennis Mangan? I labored long and hard over that word. Which word would you have preferred?

And PatrickH, when you mention bowel movements, you take your life in your hands, I hope you know that. Look where it led for me, Russian nutcase-wise!

Finally, as a Jew, I'd just like to say...Hahaha, you should hear what we Jews say about you people when we get together at Hanukkah.

Posted by: Sister Wolf on August 8, 2008 12:05 AM

Right at the start of Dani Katz's article she mentions her difficult recovery from a herbal abortion. Herbal teas, herbal shampoos, even herbal cigarettes, all of those make sense ... but herbal abortions?

Posted by: Peter on August 8, 2008 12:37 AM

I think mentioning abortion (or anything too personal) right at the start of any would-be relationship might just be a mood killer.

So maybe Katz's problem isn't her looks, but the "too much information" syndrome, which both men and women are guilty of these days.

I found the Devlin piece fascinating but ultimately limited in its view of people (much like Roissy, sorry to say). Male qualities are viewed differently in subcultures. A BMW means nothing in an African tribe, just as nose rings mean little in the US. Female beauty is a more universally accepted thing, which is one reason women love travel and men don't -- men lose status in faraway places and women often don't.

To bring this home, what impresses Ivy women is sometimes lost on lower class ones. A non-muscular bookish writer type might find himself ignored by the big-haired Camaro-loving girls in high school, but once he goes to college, he'll find women who value brains very interested in him. To a degree, I lived this out. And to a degree, my jock brother lived out the reverse scenario, much to his dismay -- haha.

Posted by: Days of Broken Arrows on August 8, 2008 1:26 AM

evolutionary cruelty, or dystopia

Except that today we have Idiocracy where evolutionary cruelty is distopian.

Posted by: PA on August 8, 2008 6:14 AM

You know, Sister, you resemble my Jewish love Bonna quite a bit. I guess that's why I fell for you.

I would have made a great Jew. I have an excellent memory, high verbal intelligence, and I love to argue. The great tragedy of my life is that I was born into an Irish Catholic family that--incredibly!--was destroyed by (wait for it!) alcoholism. Sigh. I feel guilty about succeeding (even just surviving, actually). If I'd been a Jew, I'd feel guilty about failing, and might have made something of myself. I mean, if you're going to feel guilty, at least do something with your guilt. Be a doctor or a rabbi or something. Man, I would have been a great rabbi.

Until I had an affair with a certain Jewish woman of my congregation and got de-yarmulked (or de-tefillined, I guess). Oh well, if you're going to go down, going down (WITH! WITH!) a Jewish woman is the best way to do it.

Sigh. If I'd been a Jew, I could have been a contender. Instead, I'm just a bum. Could you ever see yourself loving a non-Jewish man?

Goyistically,
Patrick

Posted by: PatrickH on August 8, 2008 10:55 AM

"Female beauty is a more universally accepted thing, which is one reason women love travel and men don't -- men lose status in faraway places and women often don't."

This is very true, DoBA, but I think there's more to it than that. Men also lose status when they travel because they don't "know the ropes" of the local culture; they have to be willing to accept their ignorance and inexperience and guidance from the people around them, and many men, especially "alpha males", aren't good at this.

On the other hand, some men have the kind of self-confidence (or humility) that isn't fazed by strange circumstances or by the fear of looking foolish in front of others, and they do well when they travel.

As for the way men's popularity improves in a college setting: the kind of woman most impressed by a man with intellectual aspirations is the kind who has them herself, but who isn't all that certain of her own ability to fulfill them. I wasn't much drawn to men with overtly intellectual mannerisms, having (in youth) a bottomless faith in my own intelligence. On the other hand, fighting hard to overcome my inner geek-girl, I was always nervous of getting too close to geeky males for fear of catching geekhood again.

Clio

Posted by: alias clio on August 8, 2008 11:39 AM

Female beauty is a more universally accepted thing, which is one reason women love travel and men don't -- men lose status in faraway places and women often don't.

i'm not so sure of this. there are forces of attraction working in the opposite direction as well. for instance, the exoticism factor. women are drawn to the mysterious stranger from afar. then there is the american factor. in some regions of the world this is still very valuable male currency.

but assuming this theory is generally true, it may go a ways to explaining why female personal ads nearly always mention to the point of triteness their love of travel. it may be more than a signaling cue. it could also be a filtering mechanism. that is, does the guy interested in her travel as much as she does? if so, it would say that his innate status is high enough that he can afford the risk of losing a bit of status in a foreign land in return for the greater status he'll have back home from the travel experiences he'll have accumulated.

Posted by: roissy on August 8, 2008 12:24 PM

I should have credited the above info about women and travel. But I couldn't find a credit. I think I had read it in Psychology Today or on MSNBC years ago. This has been studied, and if anyone can find the link, please post it.

I've also noticed that women always seem to say they "love to travel" in personals. Radio host Tom Leykis says that's an incomplete sentence, and the rest of it is "...on your dime."

Posted by: Days of Broken Arrows on August 8, 2008 3:25 PM

Interesting point about guys and travel. Guys who thrive "in their element" really are uncomfortable when they're taken out of it, because it's their mastery of that element that defines them. I'm not one of those guys, and maybe that's why I love travel, I don't know. Roissy makes a good point, though, about the social currency of having traveled once you get back. It certainly does help in making conversation and attracting a certain kind of girl.

Still, I can't get over the weight that Roissy and his type put on "banging hot chicks." For one, physical attractiveness has fuck-all to do with how good women (and men, perhaps?) are in bed. In fact, there's an argument to be made for an inverse proportional element there. So I guess it does have something do with it, just not in the way we would like. Also, the fetishistic quality of admiring a woman's physical beauty just doesn't last that long, and the focus on that and nothing else is mighty empty. Silly, even, bordering on Tourette's. "Yes, definitely hot legs, definitely nice tits, yes."

That is not to say I'm against banging hot chicks. But this statement by Roissy:

"80% of guys got dates, sure, but the top 10% of those 80% were banging more and better looking women than the the bottom 10% of thoe 80%."

just makes me sad for him. I mean, so what? Dude, how old are you? In your 30s? Man.

Posted by: JV on August 8, 2008 3:30 PM

JV: physical attractiveness has fuck-all to do with how good women (and men, perhaps?) are in bed. In fact, there's an argument to be made for an inverse proportional element there.

In the immortal words of the tiny but flaming Anthony from Sex and the City: "Ugly sex is hot!"

(And I'm not kidding. Banging hot chicks is often tense and boring all at the same time. Gimme pretty looks and a warm personality any day).

Posted by: PatrickH on August 8, 2008 5:17 PM

Patrick and JV,

You guys are missing the point. It's not that the experience of screwing a hot chick is better, it's that you get to show her off and SAY you screwed her. Hence the terms trophy wife and why Alphas have them.

For some men, it's important always to have the "hottest" woman, the coolest car, etc. And these things are judges not by intrinsic value, but by what the media says is hot that moment.

I come from a family of looks-obsessed status whores, so you'll just have to trust me on this one. Some people reduce all experience to a trendy ski ticket to be worn on their life jackets.

Posted by: Days of Broken Arrows on August 8, 2008 8:49 PM

Point taken, DoBA. But it raises an interesting angle on Roissy's definition of alphaness as being entirely derived from success in scoring hot women. Alphaness isn't then about pleasure in sex at all, is it? It's about getting something to brag about, show off, and be another notch in the belt you'll be waving around in public for the rest of your life.

No wonder there's something depressing about Roissy's philosophy of the sexes. It's detached success in the game from anything the "successful" male feels, and instead places it in the control of others, in their view of the successful male.

Which again casts an odd angle on Roissy's definition. I seem to remember he argued that alphaness is derived from success in scoring women, not from status. But if you're right, then success, and alphaness therefore, come precisely from status rewards, not from anything as subjective and socially invisible as emotional or physical fulfillment.

I think I'd prefer to get real pleasure from ordinary fun-type sex, and leave the posturing to those for whom it's important. I'm just too old for that crap. Worrying about what others think of you is a mug's game. One of the best things about getting older (S Wolf mentioned this in a recent post on her own blog) is that you stop giving a fuck what anybody thinks about you. Goodbye To All That said the novelist. Yep!

Posted by: PatrickH on August 8, 2008 9:51 PM






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