Friedrich --

Another posting in my very occasional series concerning the rules of thumb that people in the arts work by but almost never get around to articulating. Today: writing a book.

Isn't it interesting how many people dream of writing a book? It's sweet, and it's (mostly) harmless, and I guess I once semi-shared that dream, and I guess one or two brain cells still make room for the possibility that I will someday write a book (fat chance). But, but, but ... Then I followed the book-publishing industry for 15 years.

Fact #1: Millions of people are working on books, or believe that they could write a book, or are planning to write a book.

And I'll bet that for many of them a part of that fantasy is the making - a - living-as-a-freelancer -doing-something-interesting-rather- than-working-as-a- flunky-in-a-boring- job element. But how many people in the country actually manage to make a living writing books? A couple of hundred.

Millions would like to do it. A couple of hundred actually manage it.

In other words, your chances of making a living writing books are perhaps better than are your chances of ever playing in the NBA. But not all that much better.

Technical pause here: there's an important-to-understand distinction that needs to be made between "book publishing" generally and "trade book publishing," which is what most of us think of when we think of book publishing -- ie., the biz that creates the books that fill up the local bookstore. Book publishing generally is a fairly substantial industry, and most of the money in the field -- 2/3, if I remember right -- doesn't come from "trade book" publishing. It's generated by the sales of products many of us almost never think of as books: medical reference books, atlases, textbooks. This end of the biz operates in the semi-rational way many businesses do, with similar profit margins and incentive structures. There's real money to be made here, other words. You can get rich writing and/or publishing textbooks, for instance, even if it's a very competitive industry.

Trade-book publishing, the wing of the industry that fills up your local chain store, is a very modest subset of book publishing. And it's got a quite different texture. It's rather irrational, makes very modest profits, is full of well-meaning ex-English majors, and is forever being invaded (and wreaked havoc on) by conglomerates that think they can run it like a conventional business, and who always fail to turn the trick. Despite the celebrated star authors and the occasional celeb execs and agents, there's rather little money to be made here. And most of that money is as flukey and moody as the money that sloshes around the moviebiz. You'd be surprised by how many name authors don't manage to make a living at their trade.

Fact #2: Most people who write "serious" trade nonfiction actually lose money on their projects.

Biographies? Serious travel books? Moneylosers for most of their authors. How so? Well, say you're lucky and your agent nails a $100,000 contract for you for a biography you're dying to write. Sounds good, huh? But run the math: First, subtract the agent's fee (10-15%), and then subtract taxes. You've got to write the book on the, say, $55,000ish that remains. Keep in mind that almost all books take longer to write and publish than expected. But, heck, you're a fast worker -- it'll only take you 3 years. That means you'll be living on $17,000 a year. And wait: you've gotta do some research -- what's a biography without research? Visiting some archives, interviewing whoever's still alive ... Guess where the money for these travels and adventures comes from? Your own pocket.

As a consequence of these sorts of realities, most serious-nonfiction writers either hold down fulltime day jobs (healthcare!) and do their writing during the evening and on weekends (whoops, there goes the private life!), or spend a lot of the time that they'd like to spend writing chasing down grants, fellowships, and stretches at writer's colonies instead. (This bunch is usually very worried about health care. See my posting on health care and the arts here.)

Not long ago, I ran into a woman acquaintance I hadn't seen in years, during which time she'd written a first-class biography of a famous man. We bumped into each other shortly after her book had been released, and I assumed she was basking in the good reviews, and exultant about the way her publisher was promoting the book. "This must give you a great feeling, as well as a great platform into your next book, no?" I said.

She rolled her eyes and told me emphatically that she was never going to write another book. "What I'm looking for now is a nice little not-too-demanding job with an office, regular hours, a health plan, and a regular paycheck," she said.

Fact #3: The people in trade-book publishing who make the money generally aren't the authors.

For years I attended the annual books convention, now known as BEA -- the get-together where publishers present their upcoming books to booksellers. It's a lot of fun, as many conventions are, but it's also an eye-opener. I remember walking through the doors at my very first books convention and stopping dead-still. There before me was an immense floor full of what might have been an electronics-industry get-together, or a travel-industry convention -- a July 4th-style parade of booths, suits, smiles, posters, and business cards. I remember thinking, "Hey, my English profs didn't tell me about this!"

There were a couple of thousand booths, most of them manned by a several people, and perhaps 10-20,000 visitors moving through the displays. Many of these people, it occurred to me, were making a living from trade publishing in one way or another. I pinched myself: And how many writers of trade books make a living from what they do? (Reminder: A couple of hundred.) In other words, very few of the people who create the products that these tens of thousands of trade-publishing-world people are making a living from manage themselves to wrest a living from the business.

What a bizarro field, eh? I can't offhand think of another industry such a thing could be said to be true of. Can you? Which leads me to conclude, if hesitantly, that the trade-book publishing industry runs largely on the dreams of readers and writers.

Fact #4: Writing a book isn't fun.

If it doesn't make a lot of sense to write a book for money, how about doing it for satisfaction? Many people imagine that they'd "fullfill themselves" (whatever that means) if they wrote a book; or that they'd get a deep pleasure out of the craft elements of the job. In fact, writing a book is a lot of work, and often work of a very tedious kind. It's heavy labor, more akin to building a house than puttering in your basement. (And no one builds a house purely for the pleasure of it.) It's certainly possible to write for pleasure and satisfaction, but seldom at that scale. Poetry, short stories, blogging -- all of these can deliver fun, satisfaction, and the pleasures of craft. But writing a book isn't something that can be done in a week or a month. It weighs on you; it's a bear to wrestle into submission, and it's followed by the (generally) no-fun publishing process. And then you've got to endure the almost inevitable commercial disappointment. Imagine going to all the trouble of building your dream house (by hand, naturally) -- and then people ignore it.

So why do people do write books? I come up with these possible explanations:

• Some hope to hit the jackpot despite the odds.
  
• Some have a dream about being an author, or taking part in "literature."
  
• Some are obsessed lunatics -- ie., they feel they just gotta.
  
• Some don't know better (these usually never write a second book).
  
• Some have other ambitions, and writing a book is a step along the way.
  
• A handful are determined to be trade-book authors as a career, and know what the game consists of, and have (or think they have) the tenacity, toughness, talent, luck and energy to succeed.

All of which leads me to a Blowhardish musing. It's such a pain to write books, it's such a bother to go through the publishing process -- what kind of person is willing to put him/herself through this? Answer: a very narrow demographic -- the obsessed and the ambitious. Exceptions allowed for (hi Hugo!), this would seem to mean that most of the books we've interacted with over the years have been written by people who are nuts. Let's grant that a few of these nutcases have talent and brains -- still: funny, no?

And this is a big part of why I generally celebrate digital media -- because the new tools give people from the non-nuts range of humanity a better chance to contribute and take part in the conversation that is "culture." How many such "normal" voices have really been heard in this conversation before? But these days, if you write and publish a blog, for example, the publishing part of blogging is trivial, at least once you've set the blog up (or in the especially inept case of the Blowhards, paid a good webteam to do the hard stuff). You can say what you have to say, press a button -- and what you have to say flies right out there and becomes part of the ongoing culture-thing. Never before in the history of blah blah blah. Very cool, in any case, and I'm going to follow how this affects the tone of the culture-conversation with interest. Blogs have already had quite an impact on journalism. What kind of impact will they have on the cultural world? (Huge, I hope.)

Over the years, a few people have asked me for advice about writing books -- fools! Still, I tell 'em what I really believe: Since you probably won't make money on your project anyway, why not do it in a way that minimizes your trouble and results in something that pleases you? How to do this? Publish your book yourself. (Self-publishing is a growing and happening thing.)

But why turn your urge to create into "writing a book" in the first place? You say you've got a story to tell? Well, why does it have to be a book? You'll burden your life with a tedious project for a couple of years, you'll probably overstretch your material, and then no one will read the results. Why not realize your project in a manageable and pleasureable way instead? Put in a month of writing, keep it to a compact length, and post it to the Web. (There really aren't many stories that need more than 50 pages.) It's certainly true that no one may pay attention to your work despite its being out there on the Web. But at least you'll have told your story, enjoyed the process, made your work available -- and you won't have ruined your life, or broken your heart.

No one listens to me, of course, and it's probably better that way. I confess that The Wife berates me (lovingly and charmingly, of course) when I go on like this. She says I'm being a killjoy. Lots of people dream of writing books. What a harmless dream -- why kill it? And she's certainly got a point. I, on the other hand, feel that my point isn't to crush anyone's dreams. Why not make this basic information available? But maybe The Wife is right. It's certainly true that, after 15 years of following the book publishing world, I do sometimes wish people would be a bit more realistic in their thinking and talking about books. But is that an awful wish? Where books and publishing are concerned, maybe it is, I don't really know for sure.

Best,

Michael

UPDATE: Please be sure to read the comments thread on this posting, which is full of lively thinking and reacting. Aaron Haspel adds a lot to the conversation in his new posting on the subject here.

UPDATE UPDATE: Alan Sullivan shares his thoughts and stories about writing and publishing here.

Tempted as I am to quibble with some of the asides and things like, "There really aren't many stories that need more than 50 pages." I must commend the overview you have presented. Which I think might give pause to those naysayers and malcontents who insist on trashing those people who have embarked on such quixotic ventures and lo and behold have a book in their hand to show for it.

I spoke to Michael Lewis the other day about his wonderful book Moneyball (which started off as a NYT Magazine article) In answering my inquiry about what he was going to do next, he offered, "There are enough books in the world. You want to write the ones that are good. The minute you write books because you need the income not because you think you have a good subject you should just stop. There are 60000 books published in this country every year and most of them are crap. You are making someone make a serious commitment, not the money but the time, to sit down with a book and enter this world. You want it to be good. You want the book to be special and they are not always going to be special but at least you want that to be the ambition."

The issue remains the same though, doesn't it? We would agree that most of the 60,000 books are crap but not which ones…

One more thing, I am happy to view what I find coming through my monitor as signaling a brave new world. The promise of this radiant has not so far replaced the great comfort and ineffable pleasure I have when I sit down with a book and turn its pages. And when I put it down I find it more than reassuring that the book is available to me when I am ready to pick it up. It may not turn out to be that way for my five-year old but it is hard for me to imagine that it will not be…

Posted by: Robert Birnbaum on June 7, 2003 05:56 PM

While in general I am sure you are right, there MIGHT just be one more category: the very talented and high-energy writer who can do several things at once. A fellow alum of my university is James B. Stewart, who went to Harvard Law, founded American Lawyer magazine, won a Pulitzer as the front page editor of the Wall Street Journal in the late eighties, wrote books such as "Den of Thieves" on Wall Street and "Blood Sport" on the Clintons and Whitewater, is now the editor of Smart Money magazine and a contributing writer at the New Yorker, and published "Heart of A Soldier" about 9/11, which was named one of the ten best books of 2002 by "Time" Magazine. He also makes time to read to the kiddies at the library in smalltown Indiana where his sister is the head librarian. Obviously, he is not giving up the whole rest of his life to just producing a book, even when he does produce one. Phew...now let me go do something else to feel completely inadequate....

Posted by: annette on June 7, 2003 07:11 PM

Michael,

Some years ago, I wrote a book--a picaresque humorous fantasy novel. I really did write it for fun; I'd always wanted to do it, and my wife Jane enjoyed having me read her the new bits. And I was marginally serious about getting published. I subscribed to Writer's Digest, I bought books on writing, I joined a writer's group. I sent the manuscript to Tor Books, as I respect their output, and I waited. The manuscript came back a week later, probably by return of post. And I thought to myself--none of the other big publishers really like to get stuff over the transom. And I could submit this to a hundred agents, over and over, and maybe one of them would bite. And maybe, just maybe, I'd get published. Do I really want to put up with that kind of hassle?

I decided (after just a little more hassle) that I didn't. I wasn't going to make any money writing books, and anyway I have a good job that provides for my family. So I put the manuscript in the proverbial bottom drawer.

Since then, I've begun four more novels, two of which I dropped after a couple of chapters, one of which I finished, and one of which I'm currently working on. Why? Because, while it's work, it's also fun. I like telling stories, and Jane likes what I write. And finally, just a few weeks ago, I did what you suggested in your post today--I put that first novel up on the web. (Or, rather, the first installment; I'm publishing it in installments.) It costs me nothing but a little time, given I've already got the website. Most people will ignore it, but that's OK; a few more will get to see it than would have otherwise, and one or two them will be entertained.

Posted by: Will Duquette on June 7, 2003 07:18 PM

I just to put in a plug for Will's book--I've read it in it's entirety and it's a stitch!

Posted by: Deb on June 7, 2003 07:31 PM

Very interesting commentary, Michael. I agree fairly strongly with you, and also with Robert Birnbaum. There is an awful lot of crap published every year, that really ought not to see the light of day. Every word of poor prose is painstakingly written by hand, by someone. A pity, really. The author has wasted their time offering a work to the world that should not have been written, and I perhaps have wasted my time by picking up the book and attempting to read it. It is a waste. Isn't it?

In my own (ex-)line of business, I see some parallels. Professional (performing) classical music offers a reasonable living to a small number of people in the world. In order to get good enough, and compete with the small handful of world-class players, a musician will have to spend many thousands, often hundreds of thousands of dollars achieving that goal. A starting spot in a major orchestra, is currently about $60,000 a year. Starting spots in the average minor orchestra is about $15,000 - $20,000 a year. Professional grade (string) instruments start at about $15,000. The instruments are merely the competitive edge. First class players have probably been paying for instruction and instruments (some of them) since they were five or six. Most practice (without pay) for many hours a day. Conservatories in the US turn out some 10,000 to 20,000 excellent players a year. There are 6 top grade symphonies in the country (in the SF Symphony class). Each orchestra has some 100+ players, who will probably remain with the orchestra for at least a couple of decades. What sort of person goes into the professional classical music performance industry, expecting to make a reasonable living? Sounds like the same sort of person that sets out to make a living as an author... Of course, unlike authors, it is very hard to convince an orchestra to hire you, if you are an untalented player.

Posted by: Felicity on June 7, 2003 11:34 PM

Michael,

A bracing and interesting overview, but I wonder...

Where do you get this number of "a few hundred"? Obviously, one can define some category of books for which there are only a few hundred authors, but I'd like to know exactly what that category is. Does this really include _all_ the novels out there, _all_ the nonfiction that's not an atlas, a medical reference, etc.?

I'm sure a lot of people dream of making their living as a fancy novelist. But probably a good fraction of them is practical enough to settle for dreaming of writing pulpy police procedurals, or something else a bit more commercial. Are you counting these people?

The thing is, I feel like there's a certain positive relish in your naysaying, which makes me suspicious....

Posted by: alexis on June 8, 2003 09:08 AM

Hey Alexis, You' ve got good instincts, and The Wife would agree with you about the "relish" thing, although I remain convinced (deludedly, apparently) that I'm just performing a public service. But glad to see you doubting my motives ....

Anyway, the "couple of hundred" figure was given to me by the guy who runs one of the big authors' organizations, so the figure's trustworthy even if I'm not. I can't imagine anymore more quaified to make a decent guesstimate than he.

I said to the guy, How many people in this country make a living from writing books? He said, Do you want to include all kinds of books? I said, No, just bookstore-type books. No textbooks, and let's not include people who write computer-instruction books. And he said, Oh, in the low couple of hundreds.

So yeah, the figure would include sci-fi writers, mystery authors, self-help authors, literary people, etc. The authors of all the stuff at the local Barnes & Noble, minus the computer section.

As I say, one of the surprises of the field is how many even very big names can't and don't get by on what they make from their books.

Can anyone think of a similar industry -- where the people who produce the product don't generally make a living doing so? I can't, but maybe I'm overlooking something obvious...

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on June 8, 2003 10:10 AM

Actually, I can think of one right off the bat.
Child care workers. I know this because I am currently doing a child care survey analysis on wages and benefits in Dane County, WI. The average salary for an inhome child care worker is roughly 15k--that's gross. She will work 13-15 hours a day, have no benefits (healthcare!), and getno paid vacations. And the corker is that it doesnt matter if you have a Masters in Early chidhood or are Mrs Joeblow off the street with only a high school education. Workers who care for kids in centers have it only marginally better--they may get paid holidays. Still no healthcare etc. And unlike authors or musicians, these are the folks who are taking care of the majority of the children in this country.

Posted by: Deb on June 8, 2003 10:19 AM

What a great comparison, fascinating. Thanks, Deb.

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on June 8, 2003 10:28 AM

I think some of this commentary is pretty darn harsh. "The author has wasted their time offering a work to the world that should not have been written, and I perhaps have wasted my time by picking up the book and attempting to read it. It is a waste. Isn't it?" Whew---that's quite a facial, Felicity. If I happen to not like one of your paintings, does that mean you should not have painted it and it is worthless? (A) There just might be people with other tastes than yours or Robert's in the world, and that taste just might even have value and (B) I think the process is as important as the result. Generating the book might have been a life-changing event for the author in some emotional way. I think it's rather cavalier for anyone professing to be a fan of the arts to give any effort quite such a brusque back of the hand, if that is what you meant to do. It's sure how it sounded.

Deb--those childcare worker stats are really sobering.

Posted by: annette on June 8, 2003 11:07 AM

I've posted a few thoughts on this matter.

Posted by: Aaron Haspel on June 8, 2003 02:28 PM

Another industry: acting.

Only about 1 in 20 professional actors support themselves entirely by acting. This at first occasions rather sad but heartfelt discussions as people struggle to make sense of the idea that they are "really" actors even if they can't support themselves acting.

I wonder if Wallace Stevens worried that he wasn't "really" a poet since he made no money at it.

Posted by: alexis on June 8, 2003 05:08 PM

Having just about completed the revised edition of a book (never another book! but maybe another edition, though that has been bad enough) I would like say that this is one of the most intelligent things I have _ever_ read about publishing, books & communicating ideas.

Even though I could offer lots of "buts" and "ifs" from personal experience, I would also suggest that anyone who wants to write a book should first carefully ponder Michael's "Read This First."

Posted by: David Sucher on June 8, 2003 10:22 PM

Good point, Annette. However, I don't try to publish (for money) either my drawings or my writing. I blog them instead, which gives me great pleasure, some artistic thrill, and costs me virtually nothing. If I write, it is there, if I don't, no worries, either. Nobody is going to my blog (unlike the bookstore) expecting anything (I'm pretty sure they don't; any more than I do visiting anothers site).

How about this scenario, though? Let's say, I like novels by William Gibson - a lot. I am in a hurry, I go to the bookstore, I see a new work by him. I plunk down my money. I start reading the book. It's dreck! It reads like something written to pay the bills. The plot is some weak pathetic clone of another work he wrote. I really wish he had not written it - I am really disappointed, I have wasted my money and a few hours of my time. Phooey!

You are right, though. That is a reactionary standpoint, of which I am not entirely proud. But it is mine. Yes, it might have been meaningful to the author. Yes, someone else might have thought it was amazing. But perhaps if the general quality level of published books were higher, people might develop higher standards of expectation. I may be talking totally out of my rear, and I should just appreciate that people read at all anymore.

Posted by: Felicity on June 9, 2003 12:44 AM

Over the years, I've hung out in the furthermost reaches of publishing and talked now and then with writers who are rather more in the thick of things. So I've wanted to comment knowledgeably on Michael Blowhard's initial posting, and even made a couple of attempts that I ended up deleting. I think MB said it all pretty well the first time. Even so...maybe I can add a few odds and ends after all...
1. Felicity said something above that may have put a finger on a major factor. That people read at all any more. It seems as though more people want to write a book than actually read books. The perception endures of the successful writer as the wealthy fellow who stays at home all day and makes lots of money by sharing his imagination with his legions of adoring fans. The fans are actually watching TV and the writer is in competition for a share of the declining audience that still reads for pleasure with a lot of other would-be writers who want in on this sweet deal, too. Did something like this happen to poetry, another field where there seem to be more people who want to write it than to read it?
2. Because I seem to have connections with the publishing world (I'm a translator in a very narrow niche market -- I know just enough about the publishing world to have some idea of the problems, but not enough to know how to get around them), friends and acquaintances sometimes approach me for advice on getting their mighty works published. Somebody I knew in college 30 years ago recently tracked me down for advice. He wanted to get rich and proposed to do this by writing techno-thriller novels in the manner of Tom Clancy. Though as far as I know my friend had never published one single paid-for word of fiction to date, he seemed to anticipate no particular problem in overcoming this hurdle. I could think of a lot of potential difficulties here, but decided to let it go at wishing him luck and declining to offer advice on the grounds that if I knew how to make big bucks writing techno-thriller novels just like Tom Clancy, I'd be doing it myself. But I don't think my old college chum is exactly alone in his perceptions of publishing...
3. At least in the science-fiction field, the theory used to be that success was cumulative. You'd write part-time in addition to your day job for some years, building up a following of loyal readers as well as a backlog of novels in print. Eventually, the continuing royalties from your previously published novels added to increasing advances for your latest works would add up to enough of a steady income that you could quit the day job and write full time. As I understand it, there have been changes in how publishers do business that have undermined this model for all but the most successful writers: books aren't kept in print as long, books aren't allowed to sit on booksellers' shelves as long, and as a result there's been a virtual elimination of what used to be called the "mid-list" -- the slow but steady selling titles that were an author's bread and butter. It seems to be getting more to the point of "Best-Seller or Die" for any given book. A working writer could probably explain all this better than I can.
4. Subsidy (or "vanity") publishers have long battened on the flesh of writers desperate to see their works in print. Self-publishing is an option if you know what you're doing, but it's generally thought that editors often serve a useful function as gatekeepers in seeing that incompetent works are kept out of public view. There is a woman in my area who has caused several of her own novels to be published, and she has managed to get them distributed into local supermarkets. I may be the only person who buys them. The novels are so hilariously inept that I send them to my literate friends as ... well, horrible examples of novels written by someone so tone deaf to how her writing sounds that she has a kind of charming innocence. The novels also make great fodder for dramatic reading at parties attended by science-fiction fans. (Imagine, if you will, a block of dialogue consisting of eight long sentences and covering nearly a page, and it's only after all that, at the very end, do you get to the "Joe said smilingly," and the answer to the question of who's been talking for all this time, not to mention the added detail that Joe was doing his talking while maintaining a grin on his pan.)
So, Michael (und der gute alte Friedrich auch), that's what I have to say about that...

Posted by: Dwight Decker on June 9, 2003 02:38 AM

Hi Robert -- Glad to hear you semi-approve of the posting, thanks for your thoughts. Like you, I'm touched by the quixotic quality in many writers, though I may be more annoyed by the dark side of it than you are.

Hi Annette -- Thanks for the reminder that giants still roam the earth. Where do they get their energy and concentration? Amazing, isn't it?

Hi Will, Wow, I'm in awe. I've met very few people who are able to write novels for pleasure. Plus you seem so level-headed about the activity. One of the cliches about writing that I've always thought had some validity was that part of what makes writing hard is that, unlike many of the other arts, it delivers no sensory feedback. Painting, music, cooking -- all feed the senses. Writing can be a gas, but it does starve the senses. (One of the consequences seems to be that, while painters, musicians, cooks, etc are often creatively active until very late in life, many writers feel that their powers start to go at about 60 years old...) Has this non-sensuality been a challenge for you?

Hi Felicity -- Great info and facts about the classical-music world, thanks. Wouldn't it be great if some good, open-minded sociologists and economists waded into the arts worlds and tried to make a little sense of them?

Hey Alexis -- Ah, acting, absolutely, thanks. Another crazy world and life that runs on dreams, naivete, delusions, hope. Talk about an activity that's really fun when it's happening, and a life that'll make you want to put a bullet in your head. On the other hand, having a little acting experience -- even if only a couple of years of acting class -- seems to be a great experience for many people. Dis-inhibits them, helps them learn some basic reading-behavior skills. Don't you find?

Hey Dwight -- Fab stuff, and oh so true, many thanks. I especially love the tale about the college friend with the techno thriller. I've had a couple of experiences like that myself -- people (often businesspeople) who are breezily confident that nothing's going to stop them from making zillions in the book biz. They just need a tip or an address or two, and they know they'll be on their way. So true as well about how few books people are reading these days. I've got friends who teach creative writing classes who tell me that the people in the classes don't read books! The publishing biz is having a hard time right now -- apparently almost nothing is selling really well at the moment. Just part of the general economic malaise? Or a reflection of some larger societal changes.

Sorry to say that since I got broadband, my own consumption of books has gone down. For an evening's reading, I'm as likely these days to sit at the computer and surf sites and blogs as I am to work my way through a book. I say I'm sorry that this is the case, but I'm not really sure I'm sorry. I've been thinking about it for a few months. When I've been doing mostly surfing, I'll start to miss the coherence and focus and depth of a good book. On the other hand, lordy it's fun to surf the web, and it can be mighty nourishing in its own way.

Does anyone else have reflections about reading books vs. surfing the web? Do you find one is better, one is worse?

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on June 9, 2003 03:33 AM

Surfing blogs is like having several separate conversations going with diverse friends all at the same time (time being relative) Some are grumpy (me!), some are genial (you!), some take a long time to get responses, some are pretty snappy.

Reading a newspaper or magazine is sometimes solitary, sometimes social: "Dear! Listen to this! What is the world coming to? This is remarkable!"

Reading a book out loud is not so much reading as it is performing. I understand what I am saying, but I am concentrating on clarity of speech, nuance of voice level, drama.

Silent reading, for me, is my entry into an alternate universe. I want to forget where I am, I want to be in the world of the writer. It is best accomplished in solitude, with or without coffee/tea/wine/food. I can read anywhere, but prefer to read where I will not be interrupted. I can get pretty irritable when I am shaken loose from my book. Reading is like a drug for me.

Posted by: Felicity on June 9, 2003 10:19 AM

Michael,

You said: "One of the cliches about writing that I've always thought had some validity was that part of what makes writing hard is that, unlike many of the other arts, it delivers no sensory feedback. Painting, music, cooking -- all feed the senses. Writing can be a gas, but it does starve the senses."

To begin, I rather expect that my writing isn't particularly sensual to begin with. (In the Meyers-Briggs world, I'm an "NT".) But in terms of sensory feedback, I get two kinds. Some history: I've been reading books aloud to Jane for many years now. I like to read aloud, and after all this time I've got reasonably good idea of what reads aloud smoothly. And if it reads aloud smoothly, it reads smoothly. (The converse is not necessarily true.) So I read any fiction I write to Jane as I go along. I get the aural feedback from reading it aloud, and I know from Jane's reaction whether it's working for her. In fact, I often make slight changes in wording as I'm reading it aloud, just so that it works better.

So I'm entertained while writing it, and while reading it aloud. And these days, Deb is getting to read stuff as it comes along, too, so that's additional feedback.

Posted by: Will Duquette on June 9, 2003 12:21 PM

Some notions that have gone unexamined in this polylogue are that "every one can write" and "every one has a story to tell" which translates to lowered regard for the craft (except by the people who attempt it). Then, of course, there are Writers— Ernest Hemingway, Norman Mailer, Truman Capote, Jacqueline Susan, Jon Franzen that Jack Paar or Dick Cavett or Jay Leno or Oprah or Katie chat up. Lot's of misdirected cues about writing…but that's another digression.

Consider this view of writing from Dutch Leonard in Get Shorty:

You asking me," Catlett said, "do I know how to write down words on a piece of paper? That’s what you do, man, you put down one word after the other as it comes in your head. It isn’t like having to learn how to play the piano, like you have to learn notes. You already learned in school how to write didn’t you? I hope so. You have the idea and you put down what you want to say. Then you get somebody to add commas and shit where they belong, if you aren’t positive yourself. Maybe fix up the spelling where you have some tricky words. There people that do that for you. Some, I’ve even seen scripts where I know words weren’t spelled right and there were hardly any commas in it. So I don’t think it’s too important. You come to the last page and you write in 'Fade out' and that’s the end and you’re done." -

Anyway, asking to reflect on reading books and web surfing seems to beg for categorical transgressions. I do not think anything is like reading books.

The Web, well, its noisy anarchical urgency has a high entertainment quotient and great research value. And it certainly provides the purest information out of the informational shit stream that an increasingly smaller corporate elite commands . And personally I appreciate, as a dialogist, the opportunity to engage in an anachronistic pursuit and actually find an audience for it. Who knew?

Posted by: Robert Birnbaum on June 9, 2003 01:02 PM

Are there other industries that have a ratio of paid creators to paid sellers comparable to book publishing? Yes, several that I have worked in:

Game design - Thousands of designers, perhaps as many as a few dozen who make a living (this neglects role-playing game designers, of which more later.) There are thousands of stores in the US alone that sell games, each of which has at least a few employees. There are more hundreds of people employed in printing, assembling, and distributing games. As for the designers, a distributor of my acquaintance used to tell prospective game designers: "Take $50,000 in cash and put it in a suitcase. Go to the middle of the highest bridge you can find and throw that suitcase as hard as you can. At the end of this process, you will not be worse off financially, you won't have a garage full of unsalable games, you won't have suffered the pains of trying to sell your game, and you'll be done years earlier."

Role-playing game design - Again, a few dozen people making a living, hundreds of others spending nights and weekends (or retirement funds) trying to make a living. Very similar to book publishing in the amount of hard work required, but there are many more self-published authors.

Hobby accessories - Whether model railroad scenery, after-market RC car pieces, or doll-house furniture, this is another garage industry (or set of industries).

The unifying theme seems to be that the people doing this are trying to find a way to have their fun and eat it too. 8-)

From an economic point of view, I'd guess that the combination of expected monetary reward (in the long term) plus the nonmonetary reward of working with your hobby (more illusory than real) result in people entering these industries with wildly inflated opinions of their own prospective success.

Posted by: Doug Sundseth on June 9, 2003 01:52 PM

2¢: While I think an honest look at the trade publishing industry is very useful for setting expectations of successful author wannabes, I'm glad that Stephen King's wife pulled "Carrie" out of the trash for one more submission; and I'm glad that Kurt Vonnegut dabbled in writing while being a chemist; and I'm glad that Alice Sebold was able to take a horrible event in her life an turn it into "The Lovely Bones." I know Michael's post wasn't anti-literature, but I certainly hope the next John Irving, if s/he reads this, thinks "feh" and keeps on smiling and typing. (Though personally I hope it does make the T.S. Eliots of the world to finally submit that job application to Wal-Mart.)

Btw, I've read/heard many times that overall readership of fiction has never actually declined. That it's a perception meme, but it's not backed up by facts. As many people read fiction now as always have (since literacy became common through public education, anyway).

Posted by: Yahmdallah on June 10, 2003 10:47 AM

Sorry Feleicity---I think my own comment was pretty harsh, too. I was in a bad mood on Sunday!!

Posted by: annette on June 10, 2003 11:14 AM

Hey all, it's sometimes hard to balance discussions of the actual economics of art with an appreciation of the art itself. Yet I find that understanding the economic (and psychological) realities actually help my understanding of and enjoyment of the arts. Seems to clear out some of the underbrush.

But maybe others don't feel this way. Dreams, romanticism, fantasies and even delusions seem to play an awfully big role for many people in how they experience art and culture, and I certainly don't mean to claw away at anyone's enjoyment. (An example: For some people, reading and enjoying a novel is necessarily or inevitably accompanied either by hero-worshipping the author, or by fantasies about being an author yourself. And why not?)

As I say, I've found my own enjoyment of the arts enhanced (and by no means destroyed) by becoming aware of the realities of the culture world -- the business, the character types, how things actually work, the conditions in which (and out of which) culture gets made. The clearer-headed I am, the deeper my appreciation.

I'm tempted to be self-denigrating here and say "but this could just be me." But it isn't, really. It's an example of the Classic point of view in art, something that doesn't get much play in discussions of art these days. It's so underplayed and unfamiliar, in fact, that it's generally assumed -- even unconsciously assumed -- by most people that "art" and "the Romantic point of view" are not just intertwined but more or less the same thing.

It's been one of the fun and helpful discoveries of my bedraggled, loser life that "loving art" and "sustaining a Romantic view of things" can be completely disentwined without doing damage to either. Although many people do tend to squawk when this is attempted -- it hurts them, they feel the magic is being torn from them. (Romantics tend to have a terribly hard time enduring the presence of Classicists. They feel hurt, enraged, affronted.) I'd agree that the Romantic magic is dissipated by Classicism, but I'd argue that the Classical magic is its own groovy kind of thing.

Coming up one of these days: a posting on the Romantic vs. the Classical point of view. But not till I get past my usual vagueness and inertia.

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on June 10, 2003 11:56 AM

Hey Will, That's fascinating, thanks. I've met poets and story writers who keep it alive for themselves via performance -- telling their stuff to their kids, or performing at poetry readings, etc. But I've never met a novel writer who does. There must be others, don't you think? Have you ever seen the John Boorman movie "Hope and Glory," by the way? It's an autogiographical thing he did about being a kid in England during World War II, and how for a kid it was an exciting adventure, and it's got all kinds of mythical and imaginative touches. I mention it because Boorman had been telling his children stories about his childhood during the war for years. And one day he realized, hey, this could be a movie, and then turned it into one. I'd be curious to know how you react to it.

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on June 10, 2003 11:58 AM

Response to Michael's question: Does anyone else have reflections about reading books vs. surfing the web?

I have posted something about this on my blog. Here's part of it:

There is so much to read and to look at online, it's like being in a vast storehouse full of treasures - literally acres and acres full of gold, jewels, and valuable artifacts - and you can only take as much as you can carry in your hands. You don't know what to choose so you just keep looking, briefly examining and laying aside one piece of treasure and then the next and the next and the next. The Internet is like that for me. I find many sites where I want to spend more time reading but instead I just keep on surfing and finding other interesting sites. I always plan to come back to them... "later." ...

I might actually be reading more now; it's only the routine that has changed. Maybe the availability of so much reading matter makes it seem like I'm not reading as much as I should. It has never occurred to me that I should try to read every book and magazine in the public library, but for some reason with the world's biggest library right here in the corner of my dining room I feel guilty about passing over anything I'm the least bit interested in. I feel I have to read it all.

Posted by: Lynn S on June 10, 2003 01:02 PM

Michael,

I've not seen "Hope and Glory"; I'll add it to the list.

I'd very much like to read your take on "classicism vs. romanticism"; I strongly suspect, if I understand how you're using the terms, that with respect to novel writing I fall on the classic side of the fence.

There's a school of writing that recommends that you keep a journal, and every day you should write in your journal. You should write anything that comes into your head, and make no attempt to edit it. The point is to shut down your "internal editor", that little voice that says, "This is garbage," so that you can truly express yourself. Then, so the theory goes, when you go to write something in earnest you'll write beautiful things and can go back later to edit out the grammatic infelicities.

I tried this, and it doesn't work for me. One doesn't write prose that flows effortlessly by writing without effort. I don't spend hours (or even minutes) stressing over every sentence, but I do strive to make my prose clear, easy flowing, reasonably concise, as well as consistent with the voice I'm using. And I do that as I go along. That's not to say that I catch everything, or that I insist that everything be utterly perfect the first time. But I find diarrhea of the brain to be a bad foundation for telling a story.

Posted by: Will Duquette on June 10, 2003 02:31 PM

Re: books vs blogs--

Books are the meat, pototoes and vegetables of my internal intellectual life. Reading blogs on the web is like coffee and dessert--ok for a treat but not something I expect to nurture or sustain me. Plus, the computer is SO limiting--you cant haul it around to read at the doctor's office, waiting to pick up the kids or on your lunch hour at work. I have yet to figure out how to snuggle up with one on the couch during a snowstorm and I will never be able to read one to my kids aloud. They're great tools and fun toys but that is it.

Posted by: Deb on June 10, 2003 06:31 PM

Deb,
I think they make gadgets now that enable you to do all that. ;-)
I know what you mean though. It's not the same as holding a book and turning pages.

Posted by: Lynn S on June 10, 2003 08:15 PM

Thanks for starting this conversation, Michael. I too have commented on my blog. Here's a link.

Posted by: Alan Sullivan on June 10, 2003 08:50 PM

Lynn,
I like feeling the heft of the book move from right to left as I read thru it. I like the smell of new books. I like their weight in my hands. I dont want to take a gadget to bed (no cheeky comments, guys!)--it's not the same as the real thing, ya know? :0)

Posted by: Deb on June 10, 2003 09:47 PM

Deb, I have that visceral thing with books, too. I always mourn the first crease I put in the cover. I tend to like to buy used books because of that, as they are pre-ravaged.

I read an e-book recently on my laptop, and what a pain and unhappy experience. Batteries draining. Balancing the thing on my lap or leg. Couldn't read in the sun. Bookmarks were a pain. Feh. Gimme paper.

My life is not complete unless I have a book to read at any given time.

Posted by: Yahmdallah on June 11, 2003 11:05 AM

I thank the lord every single time I get on a plane with a lightweight gadget, instead of 40 freaking pounds of damn books.

Posted by: j.c. on June 12, 2003 05:42 PM

Great discussion -- I read it through going yes, yes, yes, all the way. You have summed up the current dismal state of publishing perfectly.

Despite which: I am a well reviewed and utterly ill- paid writer (mostly "creative non-fiction" -- nature/travel/bio for lack of a better definition) with 4 or 5 books in print, and I can't think of anything else I'd rather be. I should add I haven't had a "real" job in close to 30 years, and have no independent income. I do write an awful lot of magazine work, from well- paying (Atlantic) to stuff that pays $125 a pop (newspaper book reviews).

You have to do it because you love it; you must -- otherwise it's really pointless. If you do, you do it because you must, and do on some level enjoy it.

One alternative to job versus starvation may be to live somewhere off the beaten track that is very cheap. I have lived for 22 years in a small New Mexico village 75 miles by air from the nearest city, and in a determinedly un-chic part of the state.
I live in a 100 year old stone house with 4 main rooms ( a nice piece of "Alexandrian" vernacular architecture) that cost me less than a cheap new car does today. My newest car is 13. My wife currently works part- time in the local post office. At times she has worked full- time, and often had no job at all. Our main expenses are books and travel.

And travel itself can help pay the bills. We have in the last decade spent time in London, France, Zimbabwe, traveled twice to Mongolia, and are heading for Kazakhstan in the fall. All trips were at least work-related, and the last 3 paid for up front. What other life would give me freedom to do what I like and write about it? A job that paid for a month here and there would take all my time...expensive!

Isolation was more of a problem 20 years ago. Now, with blogs, e-mail, and internet it's not even a factor. I "talk" every week with people in England, New York, Latvia, Finland, Russian, Kazakhstan and more. There is more info a click away than you could have had in, say, Victorian London.

Blogs (and websites, etc.) ARE dessert -- "Mmmm--bllooggs!" -- but also the best news and culture source there is. I can't imagine a week or even a day without Glenn, you, Roger Simon, Chris Muir, Fred Turner, and many more. Maybe I should start one -- though I fear total addiction..

I have written one novel – enjoyed writing it immensely, and couldn't get it published. But almost a half has gradually appeared in everything form glossy mags to an anthology to lit quarterlies.

Still, you are right -- it's no way to make money. But if you love it, and are any good, you will write and even be published, even in today's godawful publishing climate. I expect doing such things as "putting it on the web" will make a difference, and new and interesting alternatives will emerge. (Look at Andrew Sullivan's current pledge drive).

Thanks for letting me put up these slightly disjointed thoughts.

Posted by: Stephen Bodio on June 12, 2003 06:04 PM

Actually, I have not one story to tell, but many; some I make up as I go along.
But I tell my stories to whoever will listen (kids as well ad adults) and mostly there are only to happy to do so.I am too indolent to write it all down, but once in a while someone "borrows" my material, or "recycles it" it, occasionally even with attribution. So that is my immortality.

Posted by: nbryna on June 16, 2003 06:44 AM

I think it's okay to leave aside questions of media--print or electronic, it matters little. The only justification for cracking the spine or booting up is the payoff: Is there clarity of thought? Is an incisive aesthetic at work? Does the content supple your mind?

As for losing money, should we hesitate or desist because we fear being taunted as blockheads?

Happy Bloomsday.

Posted by: Adrian on June 16, 2003 07:51 AM

I would agree with the "50 page" theory. I never read books because I don't think there are many subjects out there that deserve book treatment, and I don't have time for somebody to cover their ass and stuff all the facts in a book. I always skim what I read anyway, so why not just chop it down and turn it into a little pamphlet or magazine article?

Posted by: Daoud Aruca on June 16, 2003 09:28 AM

On a somewhat semi-tangential note (*there's* redundancy for you!), some writers produce really engaging works in one genre or style, and much less engaging works in a different genre or style. One of my favourite sci-fi authors is Iain Banks, particularly when he's immersing me in his latest "Culture" tale. His imagination and story-telling are excellent. Curiously, though, when he tries his hand at contemporary fiction, I find his novels disappointing, and they seem to fall flat. His latest book (that I know of) is "Dead Air," about a self-involved, almost hysterically "liberal" radio shock-jock in London who leads a life that's personally quite destructive. Banks claims in an interview I stumbled across that he wrote the book in six weeks.

Yeah, it reads like it, Iain.

I've given up on his contemporary fiction, most of which strikes me as a Gawdawful mess, but I still like his sci-fi. It's almost as if the application of greater imagination for the technical "gee-whizz" side of the story requires him to slow down and think through the actual story structure and logic as well. His "Culture" novels are works of high art (though his most recent, "Look to Windward," felt a bit as if he phoned it in to his publisher after receiving a big advance for promising yet another "Culture" novel; still, it's much better than his contemp stuff).

Garth

Posted by: Garth Wood on June 16, 2003 10:36 AM

I have wished a thousand times that I didn't want to write (well actually I don't want to write, that's why I'm doing this instead of working on the writing I'm supposed to be doing). I have tried to do many other things instead of writing, but unfortunately, I've discovered that unless I am working on some writing project I'm unhappy. I've written enough now to know that there is little chance of making a living at it. I don't write the kind of thing that will ever attract an audience large enough and I'm too stubborn to write things that might. But, I have been ghost-writing and in this way I get to write stuff that isn't horrible (like when I did advertising and public relations) and some people get to have their names on books and feel as if they wrote them. Since I don't write for the name of the cover reason, this seems to work out rather well on both ends.

Posted by: Deirdre on June 16, 2003 10:51 AM

You make some interesting points that anyone who is serious about publishing a novel has already discovered. They're not actually reasons to not write, however. If you think one's ambitions can be reduced to profit centers, you would make a much better accountant than blogger.

Maybe it's time for you to get that CPA you've always dreamed of?

Posted by: flojin on June 16, 2003 10:52 AM

By the way, another real economic setback as well as a lot of work in the off hours (goodbye, private life) is having children. If you're into watching TV and saving cash, don't write a novel and don't have kids. Man, the kids really get ya.

Posted by: flojin (again) on June 16, 2003 10:56 AM

Dear Michael,

Thanks for your inside view of the publishing world. Among that many important things you had to say, the following comment caught my eye:

"Biographies? Serious travel books? Moneylosers for most of their authors. How so? Well, say you're lucky and your agent nails a $100,000 contract for you for a biography you're dying to write. Sounds good, huh? But run the math: First, subtract the agent's fee (10-15%), and then subtract taxes. You've got to write the book on the, say, $55,000ish that remains."

Unfortunately, there are vast numbers of individuals who believe that taxes and the huge government that results from it are good for us. How many authors would be able to suppport themselves if they didn't have to support millions of nonproductive government workers at the same time? How many government workers read? How many of them are so bored with their jobs at the IRS or the CIA that they're writing a novel in the hopes of escaping from their boredom? How many of the government thrillers are competing with other "art" to be published? Think of all the tax accountants and attorneys who make their living by pushing tax-related papers, who never produce any books, cars, houses or products that add any enjoyment to life?

The huge cut that the government sucks out of the markeplace at every level, the author's advance, the agent's salary, the bookstore's income, is money that creative people can no longer use to support creativity. It's time they don't have to write and it's money that they no longer have to buy the books that add value and enjoyment to their lives.

Yes, the money ends up in the hands of others and they will spend it. But what will the recipients of those tax dollars spend it on? Baseball? A wide-screen TV for watching football games? Will they spend it on great stories about the nature of existence and survival when their own survival is guaranteed by the money they can take at the point of a gun from those who produce and sell art?

Nobel Prize-winning ecomonist Milton Friedman noted in FREE TO CHOOSE that taxes distort markets. Once taxed, it is impossible to determine what real value is anymore because the price of something (the price paid to an author for his work or a bookstore for a book) is no longer an accurate measure of its real value to individual consumers. Markets become glutted with useless trash and real value falls by the wayside. Sounds like the book market that you described!

Posted by: Chip Gibbons on June 16, 2003 11:45 AM

As someone who has just finished writing her first non-fiction book, I agree with your economic analysis. I normally earn my living writing freelance articles for magazines and newspapers -- and now face significant debt because I simply stopped "work" to finish the book for 6 months. With only 24 hours in a day and, more importantly, only so many hours before your brain goes dead from thinking, analyzing and writing (and re-writing), something had to give. Oh yeah, making money. Do I expect or hope to get rich from my book. Long loud laugh. Why bother? I think the description of obsessed and ambitious works for me. When you write for a living as a freelancer and most editors now see writing as a commodity -- who can be gotten cheapest? -- a book is one of the few (only?) ways a writer hopes to diferentiate themselves from the gazillion other freelancers out there. In the move from journalist to Author, some hope, among other things, to budge a centimeter up the ladder of editors' estimation (and assignment list and pay scale.)I agree with Steve Bodio that you do it because you love it...I profoundly disagree that researching or writing a book is the intellectual equivalent of breaking rocks. Who's that masochistic?! Broke or not, this past year proved the most pleasurable of my 25 years as a journalist: traveling the country, meeting and interviewing extraordinary people, from FBI agents to felons to politicians, and the deepest, most elusive pleasure of all --- actually having the time (albeit self-subsidized) to think long and hard about a complex issue. (My book is on women and guns.) To those who sneer, "It's only a magazine article", it's not...telling a journalist to forever only stick to 3,000 words is like telling a painter to only use a canvas or paper 3 by 5 inches in size. There are many subjects that reward deeper examination -- and there are writers who wish to do so.
Self-indulgence? Ask Pocket Books. They bought it.

Caitlin Kelly
www.caitlinkelly.com

Posted by: Caitlin Kelly on June 16, 2003 11:55 AM

Dear Michael, What a rare, truthful, eye-opening article you wrote. Putting money matters aside, as in: pretend that part doesn't even exist, there remain so many traumas in writing a book for publication. I did so, exactly once, and it was hell.

I worked on my non-fiction book with passion, intelligence, but monomaniacal zeal. Gave up all social life. Gave up everything to get it 'out.' This took years and years from my life, for, as you say, for any book has to find its architecture, maybe the hardest part. And every word must be as right as possible.

Then, and this few can predict, since you never know how, as an author, you'll respond to the public view of your work, I obsessed on sales. It's much the way potential parents cannot guess or predict: what kind of parent they'll be--not to mention what kind of kid is coming.

Truth: I had a worse time post-publication than pre. I was a stage mother to my "good enough" book, one that rarely was found in the chain stores, one that did not hit the cultural radar screen. This, even though it was okay, or fine, or better than many that do make it. The ensuing obssessive/ bitterness about that "loss" was the real killer.

So, I would never re-do that crazy period of solitude and re-working, because I didn't know there was nothing at the end. The process of writing, the isolation and intensity was actually better for me than its aftermath. Post-publication was seriously edgy. Or, to use the child analogy again, it was like giving birth to a still- born baby, but not knowing that, not for well over a year. It, the book, did alright only on Amazon.com, where I watched it like a nutcase; I was a number freak. That is: until I just gave up caring.

Your words, true true, do, I think, have to be learned through the doing, and undoing, can't be believed in the abstract. I mean what you say must be viscerally understood. Which means the only people in on the joke have already lived through the pain, yes? no? Anyway, for me, publishing turned me into an ex-writer w/ paranoid/macabre fantasies about WHY I NEVER SAW MY BOOK. Though "good enough, somewhere in that vast, invisible marketing chain, it died.

Sure, it sold okay on the internet, but strange to say: the responses I got from readers never gave me even close to the satisfaction I got from writing little columns, where I knew my readers, got instant responses.

I'm so glad you wrote this article, also glad that Arts&Letters put it up front and easy to find, Michael. Because I did, DID, love writing UNTIL this bizarre non-event of publication. Now, I read less, go to bookstores less, live on internet more. And yet it's so hard to say all this to anyone who hasn't lived it, because many are enviably enconsced in writing their "great" books. Maybe my situation was worse than most: 6 years of research, 6 years from beginning the writing to publication, and then: nothing. Saddest for me?: That nothing can bring back those lost years, lost forever, and lost for what? PS: I was with a major pub house, with a big shot editor. Which meant nothing except how that subliminally fed the fantasies of wide readership, great reviews, which led to my later dismay, that depression and the confusion I wouldn't wish on anyone else. That said, I see some can't NOT write, what used to be true for me. Publishing essentially killed the writing. So I say: Publishing is the worse thing that can happen to most writers. Still: I miss the immersion in the process, strange to say. Thanks for opening this discussion. Hi to all posters here, From, An Ex-Writer

Posted by: Louise on June 16, 2003 12:30 PM

As someone who is contemplating starting (and, of course, finishing) a biography, I have to admit that the possibility that I could be the next Robert Caro has flitted across my mind. But I never dreamt that I could get _rich_ writing, unless I had a steady job as a journalist, columnist, or something similar.

Your comment about "50 pages," however, is--I think--dead wrong. While many fiction books go on too long, many nonfiction books strain to fit into five hundred pages (e. g., Caro)--even though every page is worthwhile, and hardly anything could be left out (although Caro could probably cut a little bit out).

As for the gentleman who wrote "I never read books because I don't think there are many subjects out there that deserve book treatment," might I suggest you think that because you are an unlettered boor?

Posted by: Paul on June 16, 2003 03:55 PM

To the discussion re books vs. blogs:

Not only do I read books and blogs, I also listen to books when I exercise - it can be sooooo boring - and read books on one of those cute little gadgets - pocket PC. I find that the situation determines what type of reading I do.

I find blogs definitely dessert! But am an avid reader of almost any mystery fiction. I've expanded my tastes somewhat, but that is my primary reading.

So, on the bus and at lunch; a favorite mystery. On the exercise machine; listen to lessons on how to enjoy music. Waiting at the dentist's office; my handheld. Early morning, over breakfast; latest pop science, book form. While waiting for a meeting with my boss; blogs.

A book for every occasion and an occasion for every book - yeegods, did I say that? Ow!

Judy

Posted by: Judy on June 16, 2003 04:30 PM

From my blog:

‘Gide dinner. Letters from young writers who ask if they should
go on. Gide replies: “What? You can keep yourself from writing
and you hesitate to do so?” ‘ --Albert Camus, Notebooks 1942-1951 (tr J O’Brien)

Posted by: michael helsem on June 16, 2003 04:37 PM

Obviously, being realistic is a good way to keep one from wasting time, energy, and money on fruitless endeavors. It is also a good excuse to never try in the first place. Here's to the professional musicians, athletes, writers, and entrepreneurs who took the risk, decided to try, and succeeded. While some of your talent is questionable, your devotion is admired. And here's to me and the rest of us who tried, failed, and now spectate, consume, and too often find solace in a mid-afternoon cocktail. Cheers!

Posted by: Carl Jung on June 16, 2003 05:05 PM

Books
Leave the lunatics alone...we need writers. Moby Dick sold only 3000 copies in the USA, and the critics were scornful of it. Jack Kerouac was rejected by every publisher on the east coast when he wrote On The Road...it took five years to find a publisher, and he was forced to make humiliating changes to it.(the ms has recently sold for two million.)But boy am I glad those guys stuck to their writing.
Gerry Evans...on my third book here in New Zealand!

Posted by: Gerry Evans on June 16, 2003 05:08 PM

Professional writer checking in here. Age 70. Been earning living writing since age 18. Do realize that the term "earn a living" is subject to interpretation, and maybe the most important preparation for a writing a career is learning to live on less than most people hope for these days, in return for enjoying your day's work. Which, contrary to some of your statements, is quite possible. Also another motive for writing books, aside from vanity, is that there's never been much else you could do. I earned better money writing for magazines back when magazines were rich and plentiful, and when they tanked I took up books, and now have some 14 to my credit - Endangered Pleasures, Secrets of the Cat, Wasn't the Grass Greener, They Went Whistling, Hail to the Chiefs, Bingo Night at the Fire Hall - next up, Gentlemen's Blood, a history of dueling. My advice on the boredome factor: write only about what you know nothing about and enjoy the discovery, and for the next book, find something else you know nothing about.

Posted by: Barbara Holland on June 16, 2003 06:07 PM

I think it's about time that writers started to realise that their work is a primary industry: it *creates* wealth. So they should action to hold on to more of it. If this means self-publishing/ POD/ vanity presses, then so be it.

Posted by: Simon on June 16, 2003 06:28 PM

Me the first time: Rabbi.

Had a decent, budding career, but thought I had something to say that had not been said yet.

Gave up the career (could not possibly do both) to write the new Jewish theology, "Torah, Tarot & Tantra: a Guide to Jewish Spiritual Growth." (Coventure, 1991).

Got a few dozen wonderful reviews in very obscure publications.

Total copies in print. 5000. Total earnings (advance + royalties): maybe $2500.

Me this time: Technical writer.

Had a flash of insight, knew something no one else had expressed so clearly and laconically. Wrote www.themeaningoflife.org.

Total hits to date: 220,000.

Now self-published by high-tech print on demand. You go to Google, you type "the meaning of life", there I am, number six out of four million.

Total cost to publish: $300. Total royalties to date: $83.

So it goes.

Posted by: Bill Blank on June 16, 2003 06:43 PM

Write and publish a book?
You try being a playwright...

Posted by: Bruce Goodman on June 16, 2003 11:12 PM

Another industry that I'm surprised no one immediately referenced: music. I read somewhere and will now repeat a wholly unverified anecdote about someone who compared a standord major label record contract with the terms of servitude for a 18th century Russian serf. Apparently slavery has rock and roll beat, at least before you factor in the sex and drugs.

Funny, cause I want to write but music is even more important to me than literature.

No matter how few ambitions I tell myself I have, reading this post--6 weeks out of college and two measly stories into my freelance career--has been one of those moments when I suddenly feel like I'm flying forward forty years watching opportunities fade and crises unfurl. But I have to stop and block it all out: I couldn't name many struggling writers that are important to me, but I can name dozens of people who make music, do not get paid enough to live, and to whom I'm eternally grateful. That's gotta count for something when I'm sizing up my own need to write against my rather tempered expectations.

One last thing, Stephen Bodio--4 or 5 books? How is it that you're not sure whether that fifth book is in print or not?

Posted by: Greg Bloom on June 17, 2003 12:29 AM

I guess I have to take offense at the fact that you don't consider computer book writers as Writers. (I write computer books.) We are no less writers than anyone else, and, in fact, there are several hundred people who make there living writing computer books. Like other professional writers, most computer book authors do other things as well: that ranges from writing articles for magazines and web sites to writing white papers for companies.

We have the same constraints and disadvantages as other writers, but these are compounded by the fact that the software or operating systems we write about has a limited shelf-life: usually one to two years. Sure, if a book sells well you'll get to revise it for a new edition - and that's where you make bucks, because you get a "full" advance for the new edition without doing all the work.

Best,

Kirk

Posted by: Kirk McElhearn on June 17, 2003 01:48 AM

Hi Michael,

As one of those "nutcases" who thought that they could write a book I found your article amusing and pretty accurate, although I do agree with Alexis about your motives being perhaps a little suspect. As a journalist who went freelance to write his first novel which is due to be published early next year, I knew what I was up against but I went ahead and did it anyway.

Why? You may ask.

Firstly, for me it is not about the money. I still get a kick out of seeing my byline in a nice glossy magazine. And a female friend who is also an author who has very much been my mentor, told me that when she held a copy in her hand of her first book, the only thing she could compare it to was the birth of her two children. I have read similar comments by other authors - Anna Quindlen is one who springs to mind.b I expect that I will get a similar feeling of pride and accomplishment when I get that box of a dozen complimentary copies fresh off the presses.

I think that for some people - and I put myself in this category - writing a book, or several books, is a way of leaving something behind. I remember listening to a radio interview with Margaret Attwood and she said that even though she enjoyed telling stories and other things about writing, if she was truly honest with herself she wrote because there was a part of her that wanted to be immortal, to go on and never die. When I heard that I got goosebumps, even though I suppose it is incredibly egotistical in a very Freudian way.

Secondly, I happen to believe that I will be one of the lucky ones. I don't expect to be an overnight success but as someone who has made a living from journalism for 17 years, I think I do have what it takes to make it in the long run. It is like the soldier going into battle thinking it will be someone other than him who doesn't make it. But even if I don't I have enjoyed the process and I will still have that book with my name on the cover to show for it.

I am also all too familar with the people who want to write because they think they can make money out of it and add insult to injury by admitting they don't read much themselves. I have got to the point where I think twice before telling someone outside of my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances that I am a writer. But I must admit that I have got great satisfaction out of taking the wind out of their sails by telling them the paltry amount I got as an advance for my first book. The crestfallen look on their face is, without exception, highly comical.

And of course, I must be a total nutcase because in Australia, where I live, the situation is even worse than that which you so ably portray. Australia has a population of about 19 million and an Australian writer not only has to contend with all the things you mentioned but also the fact that the market is saturated with English language books from other countries - although from a literary perspective there is nothing wrong with that at all.

We don't have Barnes and Noble but we do have Borders and a typical large chain bookshop will be stocked with books from other English speaking countries - the US, the UK, Canada, India, South Africa, the list goes on, as well as Australian books. And that's not to mention translations. Of course, Australian authors are not guaranteed publication in the US and UK markets although it does happen.

As a result, there would be less than 20 or 30 Australian authors making a decent living from writing and I am including those writers who have written a couple of books and used that to get into a university teaching creative writing.

But as I said. I am not really in it for the money. If I have to, I'll spend the rest of my life freelancing so I can spend that precious hour or two every morning on my latest novel. And you never know, one day I might just make the New York Times bestseller list and Steven Spielberg might give me a million dollars for the rights...

Lastly, to change subject coompletely. I know what you mean about getting broadband and spending time you'd normally have spent reading books reading bloggs etc. I have been there done that, but in my experience it doesn't last. When I first got broadband I spent a lot of time on the Net, but after a few months I realised that I hadn't read a book for months and that I missed it. So I started reading again and now it is a pretty rare night that I don't read for an hour before bed and I feel much better for it. There is a certain sense of satisfaction I get from reading a book that I don't get from keeping up with my favourite blogg, or even Salon.com for that matter.

Posted by: Darren on June 17, 2003 04:30 AM

Interesting discussion.

I adored Michael's post, mostly because it made me want to retreive my back-burnered manuscript and rededicate myself to my Fiction Project. This has to do with my being a perverse, stubborn cuss.

There are so many creative endeavors that simply provide no assurance of Actual Pay. This is the reason our parents and teachers kept repeating that wretched phrase, "someting to fall back on."

BTW, Yamdallah--T.S. Eliot worked at a bank. The members of the Bloomsbury group kept talking about taking up a collection so that he could quit that job--but they never quite got around to it. And how on earth can you argue with "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"?

I did, FWIW, give up writing poetry because I absolutely WAS NOT INTERESTED in participating in a media in which FULLY 100% of the consumers these days are also producers. I blog because only about 90-95% of blog readers also have their own blogs.

And I sing in a band because I cannot take it seriously. It's just for fun.

I like to read at night, but I'm also pretending to myself at night that I plan on sleeping soon. This used to mean looking through/reading magazines. These days it means blog surfing.

I will read non-fiction and occasionally some mainstream fiction. But I am very careful about actually picking up a murder mystery, because if it's good enough I will *not* put it down until it's done. Which is usually around dawn the next morning.

I try to get the flu a few times a year so I can read mysteries without guilt. Failing that I go to bed with a book and tell my husband I've fallen into a well for the next 8-10 hours, and to cope without me.

I'm a passionate-though-selective consumer, which might qualify me to produce. It might.

Posted by: Little Miss Attila on June 17, 2003 06:34 AM

Interesting discussion.

I adored Michael's post, mostly because it made me want to retreive my back-burnered manuscript and rededicate myself to my Fiction Project. This has to do with my being a perverse, stubborn cuss.

There are so many creative endeavors that simply provide no assurance of Actual Pay. This is the reason our parents and teachers kept repeating that wretched phrase, "someting to fall back on."

BTW, Yamdallah--T.S. Eliot worked at a bank. The members of the Bloomsbury group kept talking about taking up a collection so that he could quit that job--but they never quite got around to it. And how on earth can you argue with "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"?

I did, FWIW, give up writing poetry because I absolutely WAS NOT INTERESTED in participating in a media in which FULLY 100% of the consumers these days are also producers. I blog because only about 90-95% of blog readers also have their own blogs.

And I sing in a band because I cannot take it seriously. It's just for fun.

I like to read at night, but I'm also pretending to myself at night that I plan on sleeping soon. This used to mean looking through/reading magazines. These days it means blog surfing.

I will read non-fiction and occasionally some mainstream fiction. But I am very careful about actually picking up a murder mystery, because if it's good enough I will *not* put it down until it's done. Which is usually around dawn the next morning.

I try to get the flu a few times a year so I can read mysteries without guilt. Failing that I go to bed with a book and tell my husband I've fallen into a well for the next 8-10 hours, and to cope without me.

I'm a passionate-though-selective consumer, which might qualify me to produce. It might.

Posted by: Little Miss Attila on June 17, 2003 06:39 AM

I think there's only really three groups of people who want to write:

1. The nuts ( like myself) who really aren't good at anything else, never expect to make any money at it, but hope to create something worthwhile before they die. Any fame and fortune will likely come after we're dead, to our ungrateful children.

2. The idiots. These are the people who think it's easy to make money as a writer. They support the "writing" industry (dreck like Writer's Digest, "how-to get published books," most writing seminars, etc.) Because, gee, anyone can write, right?

These are the people who know that I'm an editor, and come up to me with some piece of crap book they haven't even bothered to spell check. They just want me to "read" it (ie, book doctor it) and then send it on to a publisher for them. Sadly, I am related to some of these people. I fend them off by telling them my book-doctoring fee is 8000.00 up front.

3. The hacks. Romance writers, bad genre writers of all types, self-help writers, and anyone else who writes-by-numbers. These are the worst to me....either they're too ignorant to understand good writing, or so cynical they don't mind churning out crap.

I would also like to note, the low rate of pay for both writers and childcare workers is based on the notion that people think these are easy, low-skill jobs.

Posted by: emjaybee on June 17, 2003 10:16 AM

As an aspiring author in the process of polishing his first novel, I'd just like to say that I have recently come to many of these same conclusions. (for the record I probably fall into the second catagory; the obsessed delusional author who dreams of pataking in "Literature." it's a harmless delusion and one I thouroughly enjoy).

I've recently been initiated into the Blogosphere and have resigned myself to anonimity. For the curious, I post short stories and thoughts at my blog, the Invisible Library (URL bellow) and soon hope to have my novel posted on the net as well. Maybe one day I'll self publisha nd sell the books through a website. Until then, I begin grad school in the fall and will live out my days with my wife and family, working as a librarian, writing in my spare time simply for the joy of creating.

Posted by: Keith Kisser on June 17, 2003 10:44 AM

Several of the concepts your article brought up have combined in my life.

I write some technical books, and have a website that I intended as a vehicle to share some things with friends and students. I started reading the top 100 novels, and put little reviews on the website. In addition, I wrote a few essays. I didn't intend to start a "blog", or anything like that.

My website has now been mentioned in USA today, and because one of the essays was critical of the Olive Garden, I've been getting fan mail and lots of hate mail from people all over the world. My love for reading books has suddenly made me known as a "writer" which was a completely weird thing, but I am sure enjoying the ride.

And I did write a novel. I am not going to try to get it published, because I am at least talented enough to know that it is not very good. But the feeling of accomplishment that I got when it was finished, the feeling of joy I get when I read it, or when a friend reads it, is incredible and certainly worth the effort that it took to write.

I hate the fact that, in this country, a thing isn't perceived as worth doing for its own sake. Do you like to sing? If you aren't as good as the folks on TV, you are told not to bother. Yeah, I wrote a bad novel. But boy, it was sure worth doing, and I think that everyone should write a book at least once, because it is a Great thing to do.

Doug Shaw

Posted by: Doug Shaw on June 17, 2003 12:02 PM

Responding to the point way above about childcare:
When I lived in San Francisco, it seemed as if every waiter and half the carpenters were 'really' artists of some kind - painters, actors, writers - or on a spiritual quest of some sort.

I was a carpenter/writer, and when our son was born we found a pregnant artist who wanted to run a small daycare to pay her way. Not being the kind to do things by halves, Sterret Smith had got a degree in child-something-or-other, and instead of actually living off her daycare income, it seemed as if she plowed it all back into toys and improvements (I built her a child-sized play loft, thus circulating our dollars nicely). I loved her paintings but was much more impressed by her childcare. She was truly a master in the art of starting children off in their lives. These kids had their imaginations stimulated every day, and learned how to resolve disputes without an adult's intervention (or with a minimal one) to a degree that still shows in my son's mid-teen years.

I began to wonder why there were so many young people waitressing or hammering so they could occasionally act or write, but few if any doing the same so they could be daycare providers. The latter seemed much more worth doing, or at least as worth doing, but we had all somehow absorbed the notion that it is an unromantic boring slog. For me, it probably would be, just as for some writing is pain and agony (whereas I have had months of ecstasy at the best points in novel writing) but for Sterrett it wasn't. Of course, she had endless dirty diapers, and the money wasn't good, and she depended to some extent I suppose on her husband, except that he was a freelance writer himself...

I wish childcare could be seen as more of an exciting area to work, money or not. Maybe there could be some way of starting an upward creativity spiral inb the field... Or maybe Sterrett should write a book about it... and suffer further penury.

Posted by: Dave on June 17, 2003 01:50 PM

I think, therefore I am; I write, therefore I think. So, to return to the original question, why does a person write? Either for money or pleasure, although often for both, in varying degrees. If you write full-time (newspaper, magazine, advertising, p.r.) generally you are paid. You also may earn brownie points toward possible career advancement. As you cash your paycheck, your ego is stroked. All people are driven by our egos after taking care of life’s necessities. If you write but don’t get paid for it, you feel good when it’s done and better when someone you love or respect reads it (lover, spouse, teacher, classmate).
So Michael’s caveats, interesting as they are, will ring a bell with the money-grubbers of the industry, not to the hobbyists, the vain, and the deluded (mea culpa). We don’t really mind wasting our time, knowing our reach exceeds our grasp (or what’s a heaven for?). We mortals pursue activities only when pleasure outweighs the pain. I made a living in journalism for three decades but am less invested in, or proud of, that voluminous output than I am in the few sorry chapters I am currently, painfully excreting at present, post-retirement. See Freud and Sade on the connection between pleasure and pain. Those of us who, in the wee hours, hit the keyboard or put pen to paper are first addressing ourselves, rarely the outside world. Mental masturbation it may be, but without the guilt. Even after we have delivered our load of crap – to an agent, to a publisher, to a desk drawer, to the wastebasket -- we have done no real harm. We have put a little excitement back in our dreary lives before it’s time to shut down.
--Robert

Posted by: Robert on June 17, 2003 05:16 PM

I think it's insane that the people who are moaning that book writers are not making enough money out of their books are nonetheless not buying my novel, The Case of the Cockamamie Killer. Damn you, go to the webnetlet.net web site and buy my damn book. Or go to the doingfreedom.com web site and read the review by John Michaels and then go to webnetlet.net and buy my damn book. What is wrong with you? Buy my book already.

Posted by: David Blade on June 17, 2003 08:31 PM

Michael - hold that thought. Poof! I just took your dust jacket photo. The book will be called "Why You Shouldn't Write a Book" by Michael Blowhard. The writing will be excellent funny provocative. It will tap into the longings and funny bones of book lovers and writing fantasizers everywhere. It will become a Best Seller. You will become hugely rich and Freidrich will sue for a share of the royalties. There will be a royal falling out and you will stop blogging forever…

Don't laugh. It could happen, this is America, after all. If I were an editor on-the-ball I'd be cruising the web looking for writers like you and everyone on this post.

I don't like the way you are always putting yourself down. Stop please. Good writing and writers are not so common that you can be allowed to indulge in easy self erasure. You are obviously a terrific writer an enabler, communicator. When a log floats in the ocean it attracts small fish, seaweed, a forming barnacle, a bored turtle and before you know it sea life has transformed the log into thriving eco-system. Look at your blog, look at your vibrant posts!

The trick is not to let the thing you love - acting, writing, music, etc - become an oppressive force just because you aren't presently at Carnegie, holding an Oscar, a juicy book contract etc. In fact I'm writing a novel, called blond eyes bllue hair, about that very theme...

Posted by: Doug Anderson on June 17, 2003 09:15 PM

I have spent the last hour reading these comments and had to put in a few of my own random comments:
Writing: It is work, and it is fun. It is also time consuming, and completely inexplicable to anyone who does not do it. However, I work within several mediums. I cannot find the equation between them (music, writing, drawing), however, each function for me as a means of using my intelligence, talent, ability, whatever, to produce something that gives me great satisfaction. But, once the thing is done, I must create anew. I must begin again. The process is then the goal.
Having not yet been acknowledged by this market, and having made great effort to that end (query letters to agents, to publishers, in regard to three novels), I can say that at the end of the day the one thing that keeps me doing the work is that I can think of no reason to not do it. I must do it, I suppose. I can pick up a favorite work and feel inspired in a way that I cannot explain.
Perhaps, after having spent the years of struggle, either quit in defeat and despair, or you will persevere, and believe that publication of your work will happen. Though this may seem ridiculous, I believe it is how anyone breaks through.
There seems to be the assumption that self publishers haven’t slogged through the efforts of traditional publishing routes, which is why they settle on self publishing. Or, there is an elitist assumption that anyone seeking advice from someone in the business, is naive or inept or worse, believing they could produce a work of fiction. Are they really that breezily confident? Or is it that they just enjoy the work and appreciate some knowledgeable advice?
There is the question: “Am I a writer?” Market forces are the weather to a writers successful journey. I am writing for a reader who puts their faith in me as a writer to provide something interesting, entertaining, and worth their while. I hope to instill their faith in my writing.

Posted by: Robert D. on June 17, 2003 10:20 PM

I just published my first (last?) book in January. (Pox: Genius, Madness and the Mysteries of Syphilis--Basic Books). poxhistory.com One of 60,000? Where did that number come from? If it is so difficult to find a publisher, how do 60,000 people a year manage it?

I worked on mine for ten years and it ate most of my life in the process. So far I've gotten forty positive reviews in splendid places and lots of emails from people who indicate that it was worth it. I love to fondle it (even squeeze it like a tube of toothpaste). It was a joy and a compulsion. And was it worth it all? Was it? Don't get me started . . .

Posted by: Deb Hayden on June 17, 2003 11:42 PM

Many thanks to all for the informative -- and heartfelt -- comments. It's always striking how much people care about writing and reading. One of the things we enjoy doing on this blog is opening up discussions about the actual experience of living with the arts, as creators and fans. What's it like? How to support the habit? How to find time for it? How to keep the passions alive? Etc, etc. Hard to do better than this discussion. Many thanks to all for pitching in.

A quick note to Kirk, who was miffed that I wasn't counting computer-book authors among the authors-who-might-possibly -be-earning-a-living: no disrespect was intended, and apologies if it came across otherwise. I actually have the greatest respect for technical writers of all kinds. Tough field, very demanding, yet a real field at the same time. I excluded computer-book authors for two reasons: one was that most people don't think of them when they think of "real writers," however annoying that fact is. The other is that my authors'-organization source didn't have a grasp on technical and computer-book field, so wasn't competent to give me the relevant number. But please accept my apologies if I seemed to be dissing the field, which was no part of my intention.

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on June 18, 2003 01:01 AM

Michael,

No disrespect taken for not including us computer book writers. It is a demanding field, calling for both technical expertise and wordsmithery to enable all the rest of you computer users to get more work done.

But just another comment on the Writer as participant in social structure. No matter how little money writers get, and how much time they spend, they still get respect. Tell someone you're a writer and, if you actually explain that you're not just writing an autobiographical novel, they'll respect you as doing one of those jobs that few actually succed at. Even more interesting is that if you have an agent, that tends to impress people even more. Go figure...

I'm one of those people who believe in Literature and its ability to change the world, one mind at a time. I recently had a chance to interview a best-selling literary novelist for an article I was writing for MacWorld magazine - Arthur Golden, who wrote Memoirs of a Geisha, and sold 4.5 million copies just in English. That kind of restores your faith in books. It's a dense, serious novel, but it sold far more than the majority of the dreck out there.

So budding novelists, don't give up. Do it because you love it, but remember that brass ring just might be within reach one day.

Kirk

Posted by: Kirk Mcelhearn on June 18, 2003 04:00 AM

I write (blogs, novels, short stories, book reviews, essays) because it's the way I make sense of my life. For me, writing isn't 100% of the time fun, but most of the time it is. There's something about sentences, writing them, arranging them, crafting better ones, that just sends me to my own personal heaven. I like figuring out plots and structures, too.

It would be nice to be paid for my writing, but for me that's a side issue and it has more to do with wanting people to respect me and not think I'm totally weird for writing all the time ("See! I can make money at this, so it must have some value!")

Maybe loving to write has something to do with being a faithful reader. There's a theory out there that people who read and write all the time and who have been doing so from a young age see books as their community of choice. Some readers naturally want to extend their connection with this community through their own writing. Jonathan Franzen explains this much better than I have in his essay "Why Bother?" from his book HOW TO BE ALONE.

I prefer reading novels over reading blogs because I like dropping into other worlds that have been crafted to make a whole, coherant sense. I do like reading blogs, too. Mostly in the morning, before I write. They're like the morning paper or something.

Just found this one today. Love it.

Posted by: cindy on June 18, 2003 10:27 AM

How droll!

In an interview not too long ago, Michael Swanwick wryly commented that every overnight success takes at least ten years. He's an optimist, is all I can add.

If I'd read this article back when I was starting to write fiction, I'd have given up. Now, with five novels under contract and earning a living (via a mixture of fiction and freelance journalism) at it, I'm still slightly aghast at how long it all took.

But ...

Even though the odds are stacked against you, even though only a lunatic would want to do this for a living, it can work.

Posted by: Charlie Stross on June 18, 2003 10:37 AM

I write books for teenagers. I'm not really a "name" in the genre (my first novel was pub'd only eight months ago)and while I don't make my entire living from book contracts alone, about 75% of my annual income is now derived from this outlet. I also do what a lot of authors/wannabe authors do, and that's teach two to three classes a semester as an adjunct.

While I agree with a lot of what you wrote - the un-fun-ness of writing being one of them - I don't think it's fair to say that only a couple of hundred authors live off of their work. In Oprah's book club alone there were at least 75-100 authors of fiction who saw their sales go through the roof. So I have to ask myself, What is the definition of "making a living"?

My guess is that you would not consider my annual salaray "a living." Yet I pay all my bills on time, send 2-5 times the minimum payment on my credit cards (which are NOT maxed out, but hover at about $1k - $2k of debt at any given time), and eat out 3-5 times a week. I have a lot of cable television, a cell phone, expensive hobbies (scrapbooking and ballet) and regularly buy far more books than I need at a given time.

What I'm trying to say is this: I don't live like a pauper or a starving artist or any of the other stereotypes you imply that most authors morph into when trying to make a living from their writing. I live the average life of a late-twentysomething single woman, and while I don't have health care insurance and must be creative about obtaining prescription medicine, I do okay. I'm even paying down my student loans, which because of the MFA I decided to get, ring in at about the same amount as a small mortgage.

Am I ambitious? Yes. Obsessed? Not really. I don't even write every day. I'm a good example of how a person could break many of the "rules" and still have things turn out right.

My point: If a person really wants to write, and wants to eventually make a living from writing, it can be done. It is being done. And you don't necessarily need a sugar spouse to support you in these endeavors. What you do need is confidence in your work, knowledge about the field in which you are trying to publish, and the stamina and fortitude to keep going even when the un-fun-ness reaches new peaks.

Just my two cents.

Posted by: Lara M. Zeises on June 18, 2003 12:21 PM

I have to agree that it is a species of lunacy to keep writing despite endless lack of success. I have written 13 novels and have only collected 20 rejections so far. I'm going to self-publish one of them in a couple of weeks just for the fun of it. When I was 17 I expected to make it rich as a writer, but I don't anymore. I write about 5000 words a week despite my day job, and my day job is where my hope lies. When we go public perhaps I'll become stinking rich, and then I'll just publish all my own books for the kick of it, and work at writing all day long producing four or five novels a year whether they make any money or not. The bug bit deep. What can you do other than soldier on?
If the trade-publishing industry ever joined the 19th century things might improve, but they're still trying to decide if the last century switch was 1701 or 1801. It's not that I think they're rotten because they won't publish MY book. It's because they aren't an industry, or a business, or even a going concern. From studying on publishing for the last 18 years, they appear to me to be the modern version of Delphi, except not as accurate or precise. I suppose there will eventually be a change, since you can only lose money for so long before you go out of business, but somehow they stay afloat despite foolish decisions. Like I said, Delphi. They must have a god or two in their pocket.

The Laird Jim

Posted by: Jim Wilson on June 18, 2003 12:28 PM

There is nothing wrong with writing a personal book for personal reasons, after all we are all story tellers. Really good story tellers get paid really good money for doing so. That is because they entertain us. If your story is not entertaining, the vanity press can be paid to put your story into print and there is nothing wrong in that.

More to the point you are right, some of us write because we have to. I was first published nationally at 13. Thats 40 years ago. I continue as a technical writer for my livelihood, but write fiction and poetry for my sanity. Some of it is worth publishing and some is not, but in a real sense, it is all worthwhile to me. I find true satisfaction, even joy in the process of writing. The technical writing pays the bills and is thought of as work - no different than being a plumber, or more similar perhaps, an electrician.

Every once in a while I get an e-mail from some person who has read a poem or work of fiction of mine, written maybe 30 or so years ago, telling me my words have touched them and moved them enough to contact me. Nothing can replace the feeling that comes from receiving that message. The magic of the well written word cannot be denied.

Posted by: Ron on June 18, 2003 01:52 PM

linked here from, of all places, the blog of neil gaiman. just a comment on that nice lil irony.

personally, im well-aware of the unbalance in the world. my conclusion is that the world itself is insane. we dont value our children enough to make sure we can pay their caregivers more; do we think we'll live forever? writing is a useful thing; it affects everyone simply because of the diversity of usefulness of those tools called words, and the fact that humans are built to go through life guided by eyes that are, in my limited personal experience, usually nearsighted, until old age changes them to farsighted.

this whole entry, and its comments, have added fuel to my growing opinion that society is insane.. it might be called revolutionary, if i could decide what ought to be done about an insane society. we cant very well lock it away from the sane folk; there are too few of them and too many of those who are part of it. hmm. see: more thought needed.

*wave at the people who scroll down, reading as they go, instead of skipping over*

~JAE

Posted by: Joan on June 18, 2003 01:53 PM

Thanks for all these posts. Yes, I get points for reading all through each and every. However, I've had a change of heart, which I feel I must mention. Yes, my publishing experience sucked. Yes, it was a mighty amount of work. Yes, I made no money, but lost a lot. However, as I think about it, there was something about writing full time, for weekly columns, then the book, that gave me oomph, self-esteem, and most of all: immersion. I was always fascinated by what I was uncovering, less so with the book than the stories, but true with all. Now, life feels kinda flat without creating anything new, without learning what's true for me by writing about it. So, though I had a bad experience I now, upon reflection and reading here: believe it was 'chickening out' to withdraw, not in my best interests. Money can be made in a million little ways, little amounts to be sure. But writing, well writing even without readers, that is my way of learning and I think turning my back on it actually let's the bad guys, the big pubs, win. So: this correction. Thanks.

Posted by: Louise on June 18, 2003 03:14 PM

Thanks for all these posts. Yes, I get points for reading all through each and every. However, I've had a change of heart, which I feel I must mention. Yes, my publishing experience sucked. Yes, it was a mighty amount of work. Yes, I made no money, but lost a lot. However, as I think about it, there was something about writing full time, for weekly columns, then the book, that gave me oomph, self-esteem, and most of all: immersion. I was always fascinated by what I was uncovering, less so with the book than the stories, but true with all. Now, life feels kinda flat without creating anything new, without learning what's true for me by writing about it. So, though I had a bad experience I now, upon reflection and reading here: believe it was 'chickening out' to withdraw, not in my best interests. Money can be made in a million little ways, little amounts to be sure. But writing, well writing even without readers, that is my way of learning and I think turning my back on it actually let's the bad guys, the big pubs, win. So: this correction. Thanks.

Posted by: Louise on June 18, 2003 03:14 PM

Jesus! So this is where all the nerdy English Lit. majors go to validate their feelings? Just pathetic. So you don't have REAL jobs and you post your FEELINGS here? I FEEL better now about the times I kicked your asses on the playground. Thanks for validating MY FEELINGS!

Posted by: GARY on June 18, 2003 03:26 PM

Michael, have you considered looking into anti-depressants -- or maybe you just need a good change?

I am not being facetious, I am concerned that your outlook on life has been tilted somewhat and that a positive, promising, hopeful, joyful future is slipping through your fingers.

RED FLAG STATEMENTS;
"Writing a book isn't fun" -- "Some are obsessed lunatics" -- "She says I'm being a killjoy" -- "..asked me for advice about writing books -- fools!" -- "It's such a pain to write books, it's such a bother to go through the publishing process" -- "It weighs on you; it's a bear to wrestle into submission"

As a person who does suffer from Major Depression I know there are some root causes aside from the "accepted" mainstream ideas regarding brain chemistry.

You said "Hey, my English profs didn't tell me about this!". Right on! There is a lot more they didn't tell you..

LIKE -- universities are totally geared and set-up to make money and are businesses,not benevolent institutions designed to see you succeed.

LIKE -- when you decide to become a writer (or English student)make sure you do not ignore the fact there is competition in every field and though it seems unfair, others will succeed,
and no matter how much you love it,
you can fail consistently.

LIKE -- those who do succeed were destined to succeed through
their "success gene", that little sting of DNA that makes them blind to failure and are driven to success like a moth to a campsite lantern, even if they
studied plumbing they would end up owning a string of shops.

LIKE -- higher education is a brainwashing and re-programming process designed to produce worker-bees on various levels, it is NOT a process designed to make you rich or successful, the sooner you realize this, the more successful you become, they are there to sell seats.

LIKE -- people don't buy creative writing to entertain someone else's ego, they buy creative writing to be entertained.

The list goes on what universities don't tell their students. What they DO is sell dreams and a "product" which is a program designed to align your thinking with an agenda. What YOU have to do is figure out what that agenda is. Once you have done that you will have as much money as you can possibly stand.

Popular Rock and Pop bands don't make millions and zillions of dollars producing beautiful tracks of symphonic
masterpieces, they were intelligent business people who sell well produced songs about the money making themes like SEX, DRUGS, MURDER, WAR all of which the Beatles were a prime example of in the new commercialization of popular culture.

Most of outrageously successful and popular rapper groups have management who know it is not a matter of selling a new rhythm thousands of times for a large price, it is a matter of selling
an old rhythm millions and millions of times for a small price.

The frustration that you are feeling, the melancholy emotions, come with the sad realization people don't want to pay you for what is GOOD and what YOU want to believe in. But they will pay you for what they have been programmed to believe in.

A few tricks are writing new twists and imaginative new versions on; the masses are entertained by raunchy murder themes, they are entertained by raunchy horror themes, they are entertained by raunchy sex scenes, they are entertained by raunchy drug themes, they are entertained by raunchy sad sad scenes.

I can understand your frustration with writing for a planet of people who are
destined for failure by their core obsession with other peoples misfortunes
and their lust for sex, drugs and violence. But that is all that entertains them now that the "shock value" bar has been raised so high.

YOU SAID -- "..most of the books we've interacted with over the years have been written by people who are nuts."

I'll bet hey were big sellers too.
Lots of money and lucrative book sales?
Or, peace of mind and happiness in small virtues?

Sure its a sad commentary on the state of our civilization but you brought up the subject of how (or how not) to succeed in book publishing. Simple, write for self-destructing audience. Just how sick is our world? With 80 million copies sold, 65 titles and 37 languages, Chicken Soup for the Soul® made international publishing history.They were rejected by 140 publishers.

Posted by: Alan on June 18, 2003 03:52 PM

I am enjoying reading all the comments on Michael's posting that lead to this thread. I'm a neophyte writer who got into writing at the behest of a friend who believed we should write a story that he thought needed telling. We wound up with enough characters for a book, and enough of a plot development to support a book-length work. And I do emphasize "work"! However, we have had a lot of fun talking through how the story would work, developing characters, side-plots, and the like. Unfortunately, the original story had too many elements in common with 9/11 to be acceptable to most potential readers, so we have had to re-think major portions of it. We've never had any illusions of making any money. The whole point was a message, perhaps delivered through allegory. :-)

I did technical writing (mathematics and computer) for a long number of years and had never considered fiction since trying my hand at it as a teenager, back in the sci-fi days of the 50s. I've done a little poetry and short stories as well.

Along with classical music and acting as difficult areas to get into and at which to make a living is the world of opera, a combination of classical music and acting (sometimes!)in which there are about as many people making real livings as there are authors. Too be sure, there are superstars who make whopping amounts of money (Placido Domingo and Luciano Pavarotti, for example). But you'd be amazed at the difficulty of an operatic career: not only do you have to have the training and constant practice of the intstrumentalist but you have to endure the vicissitudes imposed by weather and health, not to mention travel if you're in the business big time. And today, a voice is not enough to carry one into roles: body type and face often decide who gets a role and who doesn't. Luck plays a part as well. Starting pay for chorus members at the Metropolitan Opera is about $80000 a year, but this has the same problems that are encountered in getting into a major orchestra...there are no openings.

Posted by: Wayne McCoy on June 18, 2003 05:16 PM

I know it's late in the thread, but I figured I'd add my two cents.

At 24, to my great surprise, I make a living as a writer. This sounds better than it is, though; I make about $22,000 a year as a reporter for a small weekly newspaper. Frankly, part of the reason I do the job I do is because I'm not very good at anything else.

I spend most of the rest of my time performing in a sketch comedy group - a decidely time-consuming and non-lucrative endeavor.

I think that for most people with a creative itch, they aren't satisfied unless they can say to themselves that they're in some way scratching it. It's the reason why thousands of waitresses and video-store clerks with voice training and headshots refer to themselves as actors, and why I plug away at city council meetings and school fundraisers so I can call myself a writer.

It's an obsession, I suppose, but most people's lives aren't a balance sheet, and the primary consideration of what choice to take in life isn't financial (if that were the case, nobody would ever have children).

Posted by: Seth on June 18, 2003 06:08 PM

I just discovered this site, and of all the comments posted, Stephen Bodio's resonated with me most.

I too am a professional freelancer. Have been, for about 20 years. I have written a couple of nonfiction books, several monographs, and countless articles: book and film reviews, audio scripts, investigative journalism, interviews, philosophic essays, political op-eds, self-help -- you name it.

I've written for newspapers and magazines and think tanks and Web sites. My pieces have appeared in Reader's Digest and Writer's Digest, and in journals you've never heard of or that have folded. Yes, you can find much of it with a Google or Yahoo search. You can search on my name at Amazon and buy my books.

Much of my stuff has been for small, niche audiences. But because almost all of my work has been controversial, it has generated a lot of attention. Some of my essays and speeches have profoundly affected the lives of individuals, or so they tell me; some have resulted in changes in state and federal laws; some have won national awards; one article even impacted the outcome of a U. S. Presidential election (no joke).

That has given me some great experiences and opportunities. Like Stephen, I've been able to travel a lot in conjunction with my work. I've addressed innumerable audiences on public platforms, on radio and TV, at press conferences hosted by congressmen. I've met, interviewed -- and been interviewed by -- some very famous people. And when my book, _Criminal Justice?_, appeared in 1995, I did a 30-city book tour, with dozens of bookstore signings and talk shows.

This is probably the kind of fantasy "lifestyle" most would-be writers imagine, right?

But there's a trade-off, my friends. It hasn't been lucrative. At all.

In fact, during the same election year that my most famous article was causing a national uproar, I was so preoccupied doing interviews and talk shows that I had little time to do other work. Bills piled up, unpaid. When the phone rang, I never knew if it would be an editor, reporter, radio producer...or another dreaded bill collector.

Without a regular contractual affiliation with some magazine or institution, I found I could barely support myself...let alone my (ex-)wife and young daughter. Over the years, my work has caused untold gallons of ink to flow...but a lot of that ink was, and is, colored red.

So why do I do it?

Maybe it's because I can't fit my motives and interests and LIFE into a standard box that's sized nine-to-five, and forty years long. Maybe it's because I hate being an employee, with someone else telling me what to do, when, where, why, and how. (Tried that again in recent years, and it didn't work this time, either.) Maybe it's because I like the freedom to set my own schedule and priorities, and say what I want, my own way.

All those motives might sound immature and adolescent. Perhaps they are.

Or maybe it's something else. Maybe I do it because there's something inside me bursting to get out. Ideas and perspectives and visions that I need to drag from the inchoate mists of inner fantasy, and give life and form and reality out in the world...as if they were one's children.

All given urgency by the thought that I have but one life, that its clock is ticking, and that whatever I need to say, I must say NOW.

Folks, you won't last in this kind of work if you are looking for big paybacks and paychecks that come from other people: boundless wealth, public attention, adulation, love, glamor. No, and you don't write because it's just something to do.

You write because it's something you ARE.

Robert Bidinotto

bidinotto@earthlink.net
www.atlassociety.org

Posted by: Robert Bidinotto on June 18, 2003 06:53 PM

Great article----and comments! Reminds me of two quotes:

"Writing is easy, you just sit staring at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead." [David Murray]

"...everyone wants to be a writer because he has trouble accepting the fact that he will disappear unheard of and unnoticed in an indifferent universe, and everyone wants to make himself into a universe of words before it's too late. Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off) we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding." [Milan Kundera: "The Book of Laughter and Forgetting"]

Mean 'ol Milan had it about right, though: try reading a few dozen Usenet lists in a row---Tower of Babel ain't in it. Me, I'm thinking of a book to be called: "Conquer Your Self-Help Books Addiction: Easy 12-step Program". Think I can find a publisher? Sad fact is, probably yes!

Posted by: Patrick Bramwell on June 18, 2003 07:16 PM

I've enjoyed the article and the comments, and thanks to all for the insights. I've spent five years writing to completion a 500-page historical novel, unique in concept and, from feedback, a very good read, and I doubt that it'll ever get published, or that I'll make anything out of it. But I have to say that anything less than 100,000 sales and, say, a Booker Prize will weigh less in my life than the development I gained from writing it, both as a man and a writer, the stuff I learned and the sheer fulfilment of having done it. I've since managed to get a book published, an anecdotal history of Auckland that will bring in pocket money for a few years, but to be quite honest actually seeing the thing in the bookshops is not that big a deal. Finishing it was the climax and getting the second half of the advance. After that, I moved on. That's the trouble with the novel: it's hard to summon the will to fight the battle for publishment because I've moved on. The novel is back there somewhere, in my past. I suppose what I'm saying is that you have to write because you love it, and the creative process is all the fulfilment you need. I do make a living out of writing. It is possible, provided you love learning so you can write all kinds of articles for all kinds of magazines. You have to set your financial goals at, shall we say, a modest level (no wonder so many writers are single - who could afford a family?). But I have to say that my life has more fulfilment, less stress than the great majority of lives, and if it is circumscribed in some material aspects, it is vastly free, unfettered and just plain interesting in all the aspects that matter.
So if a wannabe writer was discouraged by reading the article that started all this; then give up and do something sensible in your life. If the article didn't affect your heart at all, then I predict an interesting and fulfiling life for you, albeit one without the limousines and mansions your fertile imagination has probably cooked up as future prospects.
With regard to the book versus blog debate. I found myself analogising it with Beethoven's Ninth Symphony as opposed to the three-minute pop song. Pop songs are great - entertaining and mood settling - but they'll never go anywhere near the spiritual depths, the intellectual and emotional fulfilment, and sheer power, of Beethoven. If people stop listening to Ludwig van, I think the human race will have become less intelligent. By the same token, if skimming across the surface of the information flow ever becomes a substitute for immersion in a good long book, then humanity will have become a servant to its machines.
Best wishes to all, and keep writing! David

Posted by: David on June 18, 2003 11:03 PM

Excellent site! I bookmarked it and read this thread through.

- any other obvious comparisons?
- a gazillion screenplay writers create about 40,00 scripts a year, about 300 scripts are bought each year, only a few of which are "spec," and those are only sold through agents.

I self published a book (enjoyed writing it), and am very much enjoying selling it. I looked around and figured the profressionals didn't know how to market and promote. My own sales took off like a freight train and are steadily gaining momentum.

As a writer/publisher I testify Chip Gibbons' observations (tax lessons), are right as rain. There is much truth in what's written on this blog topic, but his facts confront me every waking hour and I wish everyone would more seriously consider them.

Posted by: Jody Rawley on June 18, 2003 11:14 PM

Everything Mike says is true and then some.

I've written seven or eight books (I always forget the exact number and when I try to count them, I lose track of the titles) and I've sold a few of them (chopped up into novella- and novellette-sized pieces) to magazines (Analog and Absolute Magnitude). Counting the book-pieces, I've sold about 20 pieces of fiction in the past 10 years.

What did I get out of it?

Two or three used cars, a couple of new computers, some rent, a few vacations to Cape Cod and the Berkshires, lots of meals at the expense of editors and publishers, a (very small) modicum of celebrity within my own genre (science fiction), and the adulation of strangers (even less of that than celebrity).

And while my wife is fearful of how we will live when the time comes to go on to Social Security, I know that I can make ends meet with a few healthy checks a year from magazines (and perhaps, by then, those trade publishers).

Posted by: Daniel Hatch on June 19, 2003 02:48 PM

This conversation keeps on keeping on, to my surprise and delight. And every day, I have new thoughts on the dilemmas of writing long works for publication. So, today's thought-let goes like this: I think I caved into need for being widely read, and cheated myself out of new writing. I am one of those among many of you who is only happy when immersed. The problem is that no future book, as I sensed and still do: will equal the importance of past book, one that died untimely death. But even that is poor rational. Yes, even had it made it, twas exhausting, that need to get everything JUST right, what I do love about internet talking. I began to detest my own perfectionism, and yet, and yet: there's a hole in my life, where writing and reading used to live. So today, I say to myself: What's with the ego? Why can't I get over it and move on?

That said: I know several writers who were SO depressed by the non-recognition of their really good books, that they ended up on anti-depressants and never wrote again. To wit: this endeavor takes real guts.

Last: I will say that I detest the traditional publishers. They lie. They cheat. They never tell you how many books are out there, not to say, it's some big KGB secret re: how many really sold. They do deals with other big pubs, and get behind mediocre books due to big names, or friendships. All the chains get paid to show certain books up front in the stores. It's all a big money raquet, in which we lowly writers rarely get to partake. So, question:

Is there something in between traditional publishing and blogging/ self-publishing. ONe hopes yes. This one doesn't have a clue. Best, Louise

Posted by: Louise on June 19, 2003 03:39 PM

Michael:

Terrific post and threads, except for Gary who probably has a bumper sticker on his car that says "My Child Beat Up Your Englist Lit. Student."

I'm a reader not a writer. I think almost everyone has at least one story to tell, whether it takes one page, fify pages or 500 pages. There has been a story bouncing around in my mind since Nov. 22, 1963 that may never be written or if written never read by anyone. It matters not. What matters is we should write stuff down, if only for ourselves. I just wish I had taken better notes these past 35 years.

Posted by: Will on June 19, 2003 05:18 PM

George Gissing, best known for his NEW GRUB STREET, said this about the writing profession after a lifetime of penury:

"Oh, you heavy-laden, who at this hour sit down to the cursed travail of the pen; writing, not because there is something in your mind, in your heart, which must needs be uttered, but because the pen is the only tool you can handle, your only means of earning bread! Year after year the number of you is multiplied; you crowd the doors of publisher and editors, hustling, grappling, exchanging maledictions. Oh, sorry spectacle, grotesque and heart-breaking!

Innumerable are the men and women now writing for bread, who have not the least chance of finding in such work a permanent livelihood. They took to writing because they knew not what else to do, or because the literary calling tempted them by its independence and its dazzling prizes. They will hang on to the squalid profession, their earnings eked out by begging and borrowing until it is too late for them to do anything else--and then? With a lifetime of dread experience behind me, I say that he who encourages any young man or woman to look for his living to 'literature' commits no less than a crime. If my voice had any authority, I would cry this truth aloud wherever men could hear. Hateful as is the struggle for life in every form, this rough-and-tumble of the literary arena seems to me sordid and degrading beyond all others. Oh, your paragraphings and your interviewings! And, oh, the black despair that awaits those downtrodden in the fray!"
George Gissing, THE PRIVATE PAPERS OF HENRY RYECROFT
Amen!

Posted by: Bill Delaney on June 19, 2003 05:19 PM

will, can you give me a brief synopsis of the story that occurred that day in november. i'm truly curious to know.

Posted by: john on June 19, 2003 08:26 PM

First of all, let's get a few things straight. I am fifteen years old. I have written a pretty good novel (three, actually) which I am preparing to send off to several agents/publishers. I am fully aware that I shall be rejected, perhaps many times. And you know what? I don't care. Even if no one EVER accepted my work, ANYWHERE, I would keep writing books, because it's fun. Yes, you read that right, fun. I have a hell of a time writing my books (3 at present count, all of them humor). It's because I've found a genre I enjoy (humor) and I love the FEELING of writing. It's great.
And hell, I may someday end up famous. I mean, look at it statistically: three books a year (if I write 250-pagers, nothing huge), 15 years, I'll be 30 and have 45 book. That gives me a pretty good chance of getting published.
You know what? Thi article was great. But it told me nothing I didn't already know.
And another thing: about book length. Yes, you could give me your life story in 50 pages. But would it be entertaining? I think not! No, what it would be is boring. Dry. And who wants that? Listen. People read books for entertainment, at least fictional books.
I write to entertain, and that's why I believe I can be successful.
Plus I'm 15 years old. You could chalk it up to the optimism of youth.

Posted by: Samantha on June 20, 2003 03:16 AM

Two points: "money" and "sensory deprivation". Over fifteen years I've published 3 novels, in New Zealand, which is as we know a small country. If you added my royalties together it might come to oh $US20,000 including film rights - the math is tricky, but, in whatever it's peanuts. But hang on. Those books directly led to all my other jobs - these days I'm in a highly-paid position in a major European museum - somewhere I never expected to be. I've had an all-expenses-paid year to write (a fellowship) on the Cote d'Azur - that was income. I've been interviewed, and reviewed, and feature-articled - all good for the sense of self.If I calculate all the money directly or indirectly (indirectly is more important) that has come to me, and add all the opprtunities, for travel, for meeting famous writers, for having a reason to explore arcane subjects...I won't go on, but to measure everything you hungered for in your life, everything you loved, and say "but I only earned $20,000 in royalties" - this is like those dumb people who say, You would have earned more if you'd mowed lawns at 50c an hour.

And someone suggested that a writer underwent "sensory deprivation" while at the keyboard. This person never really cared about words. Cynthia Ozick writing about Helen Keller in the latest New Yorker has some interesting things to say about the validity of "a world made of words." As for those who say they never read a book that needed to be longer than 50 pages, these people never really cared about books. Blogs are fine, a nice cup of coffee, but for sustained thought, phrased in sentences that you'd read by choice, developed, extended, subjected to intense self-scrutiny, wrought with a consciousness of what has preceded them in the culture - for that you need a book. And for a book you need a mind. Life without books is just televison upstairs.

I write for pleasure and if you subtracted every other element from it (I mean, it was nice being recognised by the guy at the diary, but) that's what you'd be left with - the sensual, mind-stretching, deep pleasure of it. Writing my books has been everything to my inner life - the one I can't share, despite trying.

World domination? It could still come. My new novel is called Tarzan Presley (copyright and don't you forget it). It will be published in NZ but, if the agents are to be believed, also elsewhere. If not, the next one. The dream of making a million with a book has kept me company through endless hours waiting for trains, rocking the kids off to sleep. On my deathbed, if someone sticks a microphone up my nose and says, What about all those dreams that never happened? I will say, Better to have loved and lost than never loved at all - and anyway it might happen after I'm dead. Ha.

Posted by: homesick on June 20, 2003 07:54 AM

I too would like to hear Will's story from November 22,1963; thus we are marked and dated.

I actually earn quite a good living writing, although what I write are market studies and appraisal reports - not the kind of writing this thread is discussing and not the kind of writing I would rather be doing, whether I were paid or not. Obviously, creativity is the difference, and is the driving force behind the book/blog writing, the child-birthing (genetic imperatives notwithstanding), and the music-making. People who cannot create have always been willing to pay people to do it for them, but unlike basic necessities like food (and maybe sex) one can always live a mind-numbing meaningless life without it. So most people have not historically been willing/able to pay much. (Paper-back books...)It is really only recently that "entertainment" has catapulted creative people into the big money or being used by people who know how to make the big money.

And like some others who have posted, I am the kind of person who cannot pick up a good fiction book (like, say, Harry Potter - now why couldn't I have though of THAT?)without finishing it no matter how long it takes or how late it gets. I did attempt to write a novel, and wound up doing the same kind of thing - start writing and can't stop. One could not write that way for a living, but I enjoyed every minute of it.

I am fond of saying that the lesson of one's 20s is that you can't blame who you are on your parents. The lesson of your 30s is that no matter how many friends, children, or spouses you have, cosmically you are alone. The lesson of the 40s is that you can't do it all. And the 50s? Life is too short; you'd better be having some fun doing whatever it is you are doing.

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Posted by: Donald Lee on June 20, 2003 01:02 PM

I think there's a fatal flaw in Michael's original premise, that few people make a living "writing books." So what? Writing comes in many forms, books, magazine articles, weekly papers, daily papers, news services, PR, screenplays, essays, poems, web content, etc. To single out books is silly, since most professional writers cross many of these fields.

I guess an analogy is: how many people make a living as French pastry chefs? Not so many. How many make a living cooking? Millions, from the folks in diners and hash-houses to Wolfgang Puck.

Having said that, I think a thread that ties the books, movies, TV, and music industries together (and these are the most frequently cited ones in our postings above). They're all big money entertainment industries, geared toward creating bland, middle-of-the-road stuff that everyone will buy. It's largely because of the consolidation of media ownership, and the high stakes of the industries, that this is happening. If it wasn't the case that a huge proportion of books were sold in chain stores, which do big-money deals with the publishers, for example, there'd be a greater variety of books.

As Michael said, it's the proliferation of middlemen (agent, publisher, layout/designer, editor, bookstore owner) all of whom DO make a living that sucks up the money.

Another thing that has cracked me up about practically all the books I've worked on is the way the actual writing is viewed as a small detail by the middlemen. I'm in music journalism, and often write entries in music guides. many of them are good books and pay decently, but their approach has always amused me. They have a concept, it's sold, it's put into production, it's designed in many cases, and then they call me (along with twenty other writers) and say "we need 20,000 words in three weeks." If they don't get it in three weeks, the production schedule is thrown off! Im currently writing an encyclopedia, and it's the same thing; the publisher, a well-respected textbook press, had the whole thing put into production before word one was written. Now I have to compromise quality to get it done on time!

Posted by: Steve on June 20, 2003 01:47 PM

To Anita & John:
I don't mean to get off the beaten thread, so if you want to know more about my Nov. 22, 1963 story, email me at:
kap10v1de0@yahoo.com

Will

Posted by: Will on June 20, 2003 03:26 PM

Dear Michael et al.

Intriguing. I did read more or less all the way through. I never did overcome my starting impression that Michael's original post was at bottom basically silly.

For one thing -- some of the premises are questionable. A couple of folks have pointed out that the 200 number is a little shaky. Michael's defense is more so: he asked a guy he knew who ran an author's organization. Certainly that person has some knowledge -- but at least institutionally, not as much as you would think. There is no single organization that comprehensively organizes or tabulates authors, and the one I belong to, The Author's Guild, asks the writer's to pay dues based on a self-accounting for their annual writing income...

Two hundred actuallly sounds quite low to me. Do a mock calculation: Say "making a living" means earning double the US median income, which I believe is around 40k and change these days (someone out there check my faulty brain). So 80k as an independent income would be pretty good, even allowing for self -employment taxes and all that.

Next number: the royalty on an average hardcover with the more or less standard term ranges from 2.50 or so up to $4.00 (assumptions: $25.00 cover price, terms 10%for the first 5000 units, 12.5% for the next, 15% for the rest). On trade softcover, the rate goes to 7.5% --so assume about a buck a copy for trade paperbacks. (I don't know the numbers for mass-market paper).

To get to $80,000 from book royalties through a major publisher alone, counting royalties s you need to score some mix that runs to 15-20,000 hard cover sales and the same in soft. Of course, any other rights sales (foreign, book club, first and second serial etc.) would reduce the needed sale.

Now those numbers are, as the other veterans of the publishing game in this thread will tell you, pretty difficult to achieve. They are hardly outlandish, though and...to return to Michael's claim that only 200 folks a year make a living off the business -- I would make my bet, as unsupported as Michael's, that within each genre or subgenre of fiction and non fiction trade writing, the top several sellers easily make it into the kind of range laid out above.

And of course...many writers earn what has to be considered "real" writing income from sources other than direct sales -- from advances that exceed the royalty return to fellowships and grants that are explicitly intended to allow writers to earn a living pursuing subjects and passions that the imperfect book market may not reward.

That's my situation, in fact. Like many writers I do not draw a distinction between different lengths and intended formats, so a writer may well chose to construct a living out of a book or so every year or two (or five, in may case), with articles on subjects that merit less than 60-70,000 words in between. I can count several such working, full time, free-lance writers myself, again, pushing back on the 200 number, and I am sort of one of that breed.

( I have published 3 books so far, all serious non fiction centered on science. My current book "Einstein in Berlin" is out there now in hard cover. Shameless self promotion: (apologies, Fools) If you want a unique window onto what happened to send the 20th century onto its bloody, awful trajectory, look at what went on in Berlin from 1914 to 1932-3 through the eyes of Albert Einstein. Don't just take my word for it either....Freeman Dyson was very kind to the book in the pages of Nature...which in the science writing trade is about as good as it gets. Check it out at Einsteininberlin.com)

As I was saying before I was interrupted by that commercial announcement, I have done three books over the last decade or so. Each paid its way as I wrote it (though it was good that I was young, unmarried, childless, and living with room mates when I wrote my first one), and I make the rest of my living as a free-lance documentary television producer, making programs about science. While that ain't exactly a continuous, full time writing income -- I defy anyone out there to suggest that free lance television production is any more plausible a way to make a living than writing...and yet it can in fact be done.

The real moral here, at least the one that animates me, is that I earn my living through a mosaic of activities all centered around a core passion. I care less about the particular form of my expression than that passion itself, except that the medium and format I work in at any given time has to be the one demanded by the particular subject at hand. So am I one of Michael's probalby spurious 200? I'll let him judge -- but I note that everytime I've wanted to make a living by writing a book, I've been able to do so.
So I'd take one of Michael's premises as so much hyperbole -- fair enough to get a nice thread going, but not to be taken as anything like a representation of reality.

On the question of why people write given () the horrors of writing: this is too seems silly on the face of it, in the sense that this is purely subjective. The writing life might be anathema to Michael, but to others it is spirit itself. I"m reading Donald Hall's Life Work right now -- check it out if you want a glimpse of writing as almost obscene joy. I'd recommend Eudora Welty's "One Writer's Beginnings" even more highly, both for its stunning beauty and insight, and for an object demonstration of how writing is a collaboration, first with the world and then with the reader, which, when it all works, is revelatory.

I'm no Welty, though I read paragraphs at random from that book (and a few other talismans) whenever I start a day's work. But I feel the same rewards that she and others mention in the act of writing. It can be hard, and annoying, and sometimes, briefly impossible, but it beats any number of tasks that most people would not label as insane. (Try logging video tape (ah...the glamor of television), or bagging grass seed in a tin-roofed barn in July, or catering a wedding, to name a few things I have done. Each had its rewards, but man -- writing is easier.)

Maybe writing comes hard to Michael, though (a) I doubt it in his case and (b) I suspect that what trips most people up is the rewriting, not the initial rush of pouring words onto paper. But even hard doesn't mean insane. I find the real reward of writing comes from its difficulty, from the enforced, intense concentration it requires. Again -- others can have other experiences -- but the craft of writing has its difficulties, its pitfalls and all the craft rewards you can imagine for wood working, or gardening, or whatever. The process itself has its value for the doer; it isn't all about content.

There is a lot more that I think I might object to in some of the assumptions of this thread, but all this has gone on long enough -- and as Cyril Connolly documented in his bizarre great work "The Enemies of Promise" one fo the pitfalls for a writer (or any other creative worker) is the distraction of actions that resemble writing, but aren't the real thing -- which I'm afraid includes much of the Web, including a lot of blogtopia.

best to all --

Tom Levenson

Posted by: Tom Levenson on June 20, 2003 06:02 PM

I'm one of those who dreams of writing a book. I've written thousands of pages of technical stuff as an engineer, complete with illustrations, graphs, and charts. This was all done one page at a time.

Process:
1. Spend 4-6 weeks researching the requirements of the project;
2. Gain a clear understanding of the goal;
3. Form a clear picture in my head of what the final project documentation should look like;
4. Begin designing and writing, one page at a time until the design was complete;
5. Submit the design to peers for review and greatly appreciate their comments and corrections because I would get so close to the project I couldn't see my mistakes;
6. Make corrections;
7. Submit to customer for approval;
8. Wait;
9. Work on something else;
10. Wait some more;
11. Get marked up design back from customer;
12. Make required corrections;
13. Re-submit to customer;
14. Wait some more while working on the next project;
15. Get approved design back;
16. Feel satisfied for job well done.

Total Design time - 3-5 months, but I usually had 3-8 projects going on simultaneously. I always had great pride in the final designs of my projects, and I always appreciated them far more than anyone else. But as I drive around Dallas/Fort Worth, I can point our numerous buildings I've helped build with my designs.

Can you tell me if the creation process is in any way similar to what I described above. I once read about an author who said the secret to writing was putting only 1500 words/day on paper. It sounds mundane, but the satisfaction has to be similar to what I feel when I do design work.

Now if someone just sits down to write without the 4-6 weeks of research or planning, I would think it would be a nightmare and produce a very incoherent piece of work. Am I close at all?

Posted by: Scott Harris on June 20, 2003 06:45 PM

While this is kind a fun thread, in view of some of the remarks about the near impossibility of ever producing a finished book, I'm beginning to wonder what I'm doing wrong. Something, apparently, because my 13th novel just came out and I'm starting on #14.

However, my SF/Fantasy titles aren't conventionally print published, nor are they self-published.

I'm contracted with a royalty paying independent epublisher based in Canada who markets my titles via online booksellers like Fictionwise, Palm Digital Media and W.H.Smith to a steadily growing audience of PDA, Palm, Rocket and other wireless handheld owners. (He also does print editions for the diehards who want something more traditional.)

While I'm not making enough off my writing to quit my day job, my royalties provide a nice little income that allows for a few extras here and there.

Do I enjoy writing? That's hard to say. It certainly doesn't get any easier as time goes on, but I'll probably be doing it until I die, and it's nice to know that there are folks out there who enjoy it.

Just my two cents worth.

Posted by: Kate Saundby on June 20, 2003 08:22 PM

I think the original piece was roughly on target as ré trade publishing.

Most books will never be published (nor, from any reasonably objective POV do most of those deserve to be - but that's another story). That said, of the small percentage that will be published, most will command small advances, anywhere from $5-75,000. Manuscripts or proposals with very high perceived mainstream appeal, good timing, and a savvy agent to manage the bidding process, (a tiny share of the already small percentage that get bought) will receive blockbuster advances ($2-250,000 and up), which may indeed provide a few years of reasonable income. Basically it's a sliver of a fragment.

There is another business that mirrors this - the music business, which others have pointed out.

And actors have roughly the same relationship with the movie industry.

These are all heavily weighted businesses, with a very few earning obscenely large amounts and most waiting tables, teaching etc. And those obscenely large payouts, plus prestige, attention etc., attract huge pools of aspirants (similarly, I guess, all those "I'm writing/thinking about writing/want to write a book").

Actors and musicians, for the most part, have to be young and attractive, which thins the pool out a bit. And many people know they can't act or sing. No age or appearance parameters restrict authors, for the most part, and everyone with a college degree seems to think they can write.

I could go on...

Bill Horwedel

PS FYI over 20,000 people attend BEA (the low end of Michael's estimate.)

Posted by: Bill Horwedel on June 20, 2003 08:57 PM

Many thanks to all for your stories, comments and observations, which combine to give a very good and representative snapshot of what the writing-books life is like.

A fast word in defence of my 200-authors -who-make-a-living-writing-books figure ... I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who has a source that's better than mine. But until someone comes up with one, I think my number should be considered pretty trustworthy. I covered the publishing field professionally for 15 years, and the guy who gave me the guesstimate was the best source I had in my Rolodex for such a figure.

And a quick note of appreciation to those who say, Yeah, but writing books isn't the only way to get by from writing: Well, of course you're right, and many thanks for reminding us, and for giving examples of such. I will point out, though, that this posting wasn't intended as a comprehensive survey of how people get by from writing.

It wasn't intended as a pro-books-writing or anti-books-writing piece of cheerleading either. People can and will write books no matter what my opinion is, which is as it should be. Instead, I simply wanted to confront people's fantasies about writing books for a living with a few of the actual facts of the field. People who fantasize about writing books for a living aren't daydreaming about scraping by on reprint rights, stays at writers colonies, writing freelance travel articles, chasing down fellowships and teaching gigs, and pulling together encyclopedia entries on ridiculous schedules, which is what the professional book-writer's life often consists of. They're daydreaming instead about getting paid a decent living for writing the books they'd love to write. And the general books press isn't letting them know what the field really consists of. Hence this blog posting.

Hey, if and when you've read this far into the thread, please stop by the rest of our blog. We gas on about art, economics, politics, writing, movies, etc. And -- perhaps deludedly -- we like to imagine that we offer a point of view on the arts that's quite different than what you'll usually run into. You certainly won't be worried about whether there's undue advertiser pressure on us -- we're writing about the arts purely for the love of it. Go to the top of this page and click on "Main" in order to see what we're up to today.

And many thanks for stopping by.

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on June 21, 2003 02:10 AM

Wow, interesting how someone not in the business can come to the conclusion that only two hundred people can make a living at it. Maybe it's because you talked to "the guy heading the big author's group" when you should've talked to "the woman heading the biggest author's group in the world" -- Romance Writers of America. There are a couple of thousand of us who are published in various areas of romance and women's fiction. And many of us -- far more than a few hundred -- do make a living. We are teachers, accountants, lawyers, television producers, public relations gurus, business women -- and we've all given up that first career to be full time writers. Add us to published authors belonging to a dozen other author organizations. That said, there are more reasons to write than making a living. Getting a book published -- or a book a year published -- is indeed a dream that thousands more authors have met and are made happy even if they do keep their day jobs. And that, IMO, is worth more than 2 cents.

Posted by: Patricia Rosemoor on June 21, 2003 10:15 AM

I'm a strugling writer and I'm working on a book but I have two jobs and I'm
not writting my novel but I'm trying to do the best I can. I need a publisher that cn help me! Please help me! Thank you for listening to me!!

Posted by: Jeanine Panzone on June 21, 2003 12:09 PM

Very interesting reading, although I've come in late. I certainly agree about the frustrations of trade book writing, but there is another side: As a licensed psychotherapist, I've written my 11 self-help books, (and been published in 14 languages)for a few reasons.
1. It gives me an outlet for the huge amount of creative thinking I do in sessions with clients who constantly bring me new challenges.
2. The solitariness of writing creates a balance with the heavily "peopled" nature of the rest of my life -- I actually enjoy most of it.
3. My mission on Earth is to help people heal, psychologically, and books are one more way to do it. I get quite a few letters from people telling me the books have helped them tremendously.
4. I have the writer's dream of making a real mark on the world, even if it happens posthumously.
5. Sometimes, at this point, publishers even ask me to write on a specific topic, which is flattering, and a wonderful challenge.
6. I have had some amazing adjunct opportunities come out of the published books, such as touring and lecturing in this country, and in Mexico, Columbia and Costa Rica, which was thrilling.
7. I've met amazing people, and worked with really talented editors and co-authors, and I adore my agent.

So, for me, trade publishing has been rewarding. Financially, it's a nice adjunct to the main income I earn as a therapist. Emotionally, it's very satisfying, and occasionally enormously frustrating. Career-wise, it's a plus to have been published. It's an adventure. I wouldn't like to have to live on what my writing earns me, but, like e.e.cummings, "I love having written."

Tina Tessina

Posted by: Tina B. Tessina, PhD on June 21, 2003 03:29 PM

I very much enjoyed reading, and in a way was consoled by the opening piece.It is nice to know that I am not alone in devoting my life to writing books, and in making very little money from it.
But I think you miss the main point about ' books'and about what many writers are trying to do.
First of all, writing a book is doing many many different kinds of things, as there are many different kinds of books.
I'll give an example. When my grandmother over thirty five years ago became sick, and was close to the end, I thought of how sad it was that such a wonderful, kind , person would leave the world without anyone in a generation knowing her story. I thought then writing could be a way of keeping alive the memory of someone one loves.
This is just one example.
Most people I believe write or try to write books out of some deep personal need to do so.
Books , the great books, bear in them the wisdom of mankind. And much of its beauty.
I could go on and on with reasons.I could also go on to say something about how that portable little package is the most pleasurable thing in the world to read. And as someone who reads much material on a computer screen I can tell you it does not compare in any way to the kind of depth and closeness you can get from 'curling up' with a book.
In the end , it is not a question of money but of bringing something true and good and beautiful to the world, something which will enhance life for others.
I sympathize with hundreds of thousands of scribblers out there who want a book in their name. It may not be eternity, but it is a hint of , and a hope of belonging in a kind of ' higher world.'
As for the disappointments of poor reception, no or obtuse reviews, little financial reward or recognition, I know these too.
But then there is the dream of a next time, another bright book, another hope.
I myself thank G-d, that after years of struggle I still have hope,have the dream that the next book will do what others have not done yet.
Let us always remember and be inspired by the lean knight of La Mancha setting out into the darkness of the world , tilting at windmills, making himself absurd, and bringing greater light and beauty to mankind.

Posted by: Shalom Freedman on June 22, 2003 03:09 PM

Greetings to all of you, above all to Felicity.
Reading these comments with pleasure, I miss the full importance of a difficult fact that I love: a man who puts flowers on the table where he will eat alone changes his evening. Beauty has no reason.

People who love reading are likely also to write becuase they have joy in their language. Putting words or sounds together starts a process that has an impetus of its own and can satisfy people in ways they cannot anticipate. Some people even play the piano underground, foolish only if they think that this will make them rich.

If she is like me, Felicity spent many youthful hours learning to play a fretless (stringed) instrument, devoting herself to a particular kind of expression and perhaps glad of the shelter that this learning gave her. Such a shelter can easily become a cage, just as a career can become a dead end. But isn't it the experience of art that keeps teenagers in their cells, the possibility of expression? They have needs apart from secure jobs in industies.

Posted by: Ken on June 22, 2003 07:32 PM

Wow! Read your comments and I agree with much of what you say. I'm the author of "The Houses That Sears Built" and this is my full time job. I'm one of those "few hundred" writers you mentioned in your article. Much of what you say is on target. I self-published because I've been a freelance writer for 7 years (magazines and newspapers) and I know how impossible it is for a writer to get their book published.

I travel all over the place, promoting myself and my book. I work 75+ hours a week. I'm writing two more books; so in the midst of this promoting and traveling and lecturing (and bookeeping and shipping and managing this small business), I'm doing intensive research for my new books. The money I've spent this year on traveling and researching is enormous. Fortunately, when I sell one of my $19.95 books, I make $17.25. Nice profit margin. And I sell a lot of books.

When all is said and done - this year I'll make about $25,000. Last year I made $10,000. Next year I hope to hit about $40,000.

My income is going up because I'm in high demand as a public speaker. I sell most of my books at my lectures and I now earn a decent honorarium (about $200). Doing 1-3 lectures a week and selling 10-20 books per lecture is what pays the bills.

Selling 300 books per month at Amazon.com and thru my distributor (which sells to bookstores) does not make me much money. Publishing ain't pretty business. Book buyers expect a discount of 40%, so my $19.95 book is worth $11.97 to them. And Net 90 is the industry standard. In other words, I have to wait three months to get paid.

It's 5:00 a.m. as I write this. I leave in a few minutes for a 3-hour (each way) "day trip" to another city for research and interviews. My new books will be a real contribution to the world and offer historical information that was nearly lost to the centuries, but this is not a glamorous profession.

I work my arse off and I'm so tired of traveling I can hardly bear it. But the joy of writing and the joy of doing what I love the most is what keeps me going. I love Sears Homes; studying them, researchng them; finding them hidden all over our country. Writing about them is the way to support myself in this intense hobby that I love.

I am obsessed. No normal person could do what I do. :)

Rose

Posted by: Rose Thornton on June 23, 2003 06:22 AM

"We are no less writers than anyone else"......
I am not unemployed, I am a consultant:=))

Posted by: Temur on June 23, 2003 03:07 PM

Regarding Steve's comments above about the music guide books, the same production model is used in a segment of the technical book market. Any time a new technology looks like it is going to become popular, certain houses commission a title that contains appropriate buzz words.

I've turned down such work before, and a friend and former co-worker didn't. He now regrets it dearly: all of the pain, and few of the rewards of much other book writing.

Posted by: David Mercer on June 23, 2003 07:37 PM

For 12 years, while going downhill for a living on the island of Maui, I photographed and videographed everything in sight. Now I'm finishing a coffee table book entitled "Cruiser Bob's Tour da'Maui and feeling pretty good about it.

Your article depresses me.

Posted by: Cruiser Bob on June 23, 2003 11:38 PM

After spending 30 years teaching teachers how to teach spelling, I wrote a definitive and revolutionary manuscript on the subject:ADVANCED SPELLING AND WORD-ATTACK SKILLS. But, alas, no one cares about spelling. Should I trash the manuscript, or donate it to a school district (rife with students who cannot spell and teachers who don't know how to enable them)?
Richard P. Archer, Ed.D.

Posted by: Dick Archer on June 24, 2003 01:03 AM

I posted some comments when this thread was young, then went away for a while. Now checking back in again, I find the thread amazingly lengthy with all kinds of fascinating observations by lots of people, including a couple of names I know. Barbara Holland wrote the best book on cats I've ever read, SECRETS OF THE CAT. I've bought a number of copies over the years to give to especially deserving friends. I highly recommend it to anyone who likes cats. Even if you don't like cats, it's worth reading for the writing: Holland can string words together and make them purr. Amazon probably has the book, but if not, www.commonreader.com will. (Disclaimer: I don't know Barbara Holland personally, I'm just someone who spent several warmly remembered hours reading her book. Nor do I have any connection with Amazon or A Common Reader except for buying stuff from them.) Robert Bidinotto probably doesn't remember me but I met him at a meeting for some now long-defunct group or other years ago, and I've followed his work at least casually ever since.
It's a little known fact that "bidinotto" is Italian for "Attention - good reading ahead."

Posted by: Dwight Decker on June 24, 2003 04:11 AM

I see a lot of comments by writers--published, unpublished, manque, parkay. What I don't see are comments by writers and publishers saying, "You damn fools! Send me your stuff. I'll take an honest, fair look at it. If within three pages I can tell it sucks, I will send you a letter saying it sucks. If it's as good as you say it is I will try to get it published." Don't agents and publishers troll the Internet and the blogs hunting for innovation and talent? If not, get with the program, all ye agents and publishers.

Posted by: David M. Brown on June 24, 2003 09:10 AM

Very interesting thread. Some observations:

1. One profession which, I believe, is even more poorly treated than that of the novelist is the screenwriter. Because they are so expensive to produce, the ratio of written screenplays to produced films is even lower than that of written to published novels. The cost also makes it prohibitive for most people to produce their own. Despite this, everybody thinks screenwriting is easy and thousands upon thousands of screenplays get written that will never see the light of day. Furthermore, although well paid by many standards, screenwriters are poorly paid by film standards, with a small handful of writers making anything near what a mid-level actor or director can expect to make. But, the killer for me is that writers have no respect in Hollywood, where they can slave on a project for years only to have it be taken away from them and given to somebody else. (I have never heard of this happening to a novelist!)

2. Somebody has asked if there has been a sociological study of writers. I don't know, but I can point to my own dissertation research, which is now on my Web site. Chapter Two is a sociological study of people who write prose fiction and put it on the Web -- if you're interested in this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that will interest you. (ALSO: if you're interested in why the mid-list writers are no longer being promoted as much by publishing houses, chapter five has an overview of changes in the publishing industry over the last couple of decades.)

3. I don't understand why people are so negative about writers, especially when they dabble themselves. There is nothing inherently wrong with writing a novel (or screenplay or whatever) whether or not it ever gets a public airing.

As a long-time fiction writer in a variety of media, I long ago realized that I was doing it for my own pleasure (and, more recently, that of my friends and family, who seem to like it); the odds of reaching an audience were, as many people on this thread have pointed out, slim to none. I do not believe that that in any way invalidates the act itself.

Yes, I think that people should have no illusions about getting work produced (and say so when I lecture about screenwriting). And, certainly, it would be nice if people didn't have an inflated idea of the quality of what they produced. But, compared to any number of activities I can think of, artistic production is relatively harmless; the amount of negativity surrounding it seems, to me, to be out of all proportion to the action.

Of course, one reason many people write is because they think it is an easy way to fame. In North American society, as somebody in a film once said, you're nobody if you aren't on TV. Well. Just as those who write must be disabused of this notion (writing well, like doing anything well, takes years and years of dedicated hard work and practice), I think those who criticize those who write should also be disabused of this notion. Writing is an end in itself, not just a means of becoming famous.

Ira Nayman
ira@lespagesauxfolles.ca
creator
Les Pages aux Folles
http://www.lespagesauxfolles.ca

Posted by: Ira Nayman on June 24, 2003 05:56 PM

Great discussion. I'm onto my second nonfiction book, a joint effort with my wife Emily, and even with an OK advance we are under no illusion as to its profitability - we'll be lucky to get 10 cents a word. But it's interesting doing the research and there is some satisfaction in the writing, especially as we're both getting better at it as we go on. Plus we're watching much less television these days...

Posted by: Angus Holland on June 25, 2003 02:58 AM

Upon rereading the comments of the many reader- writers I thought of an idea of a book which someone out there might one day write- "An Encyclopedia of all the Unsuccessful writers in the world- focusing on the terrible price their devoting themselves to writing has had on their lives" In this regard I once did research for a book on the family- lives of well- known authors, and my initial and not surprising discovery is that the great share of them were ( I studied mostly male authors) lousy husbands and fathers. I then thought to contrast them with great figures of learning in the Jewish tradition where there is such great stress on passing 'one's creative life and effort' to the next generation.
I did not do the study.
By the way "The Book about Ideas for Books" which I think many people work on all the time is also an interesting subject for a book. All can be made into a book, but then the question is whether it is real, or just a book. But again there are those who would say that nothing is more real than a book, especially those who have spent years writing one only to have it not known or recognized by anyone.
Thanks for the interesting article, and the opportunity to disquisit on it.

Posted by: Shalom Freedman on June 26, 2003 09:58 AM

Aspiring young writers (and actors, musicians, painters, etc.) ought to take heed to what older people tell them--but they won't. Here is a quote from a short story by Chekhov which expresses the truth beautifully:

"Like wolves in a cage, the three friends kept pacing to and fro from one end of the room to the other. They talked without ceasing, talked hotly and genuinely; all three were excited, carried away. To listen to them it would seem they had the future, fame, money in their hands. And it never occurred to either of them that time was passing, that every day life was nearing its close, that they had lived at other people's expense a great deal and nothing yet was accomplished; that they were all bound by the inexorable law by which of a hundred promising beginners only two or three rise to any position and all the others draw blanks in the lottery, perish playing the part of flesh for the cannon....They were gay and happy, and looked the future boldly in the face.
Chekhov, "Talent"

Posted by: Bill Delaney on June 26, 2003 04:47 PM

Dead on the bulls eye, Blowhards!

It took me 8 years to write my first novel, (a piece of crap), 3 years for my second (moderately awful, on the same level as Clancy and his ilk - you know, cardboard characters and boring plot), and two years for my third (which, read the reviews, really is damn fine).

And when I got the third one published, I discovered that if you're not published by one of the 'BIG 6' publishers, *nobody will review your novel*!

It's as if there's some kind of conspiracy going on. And if nobody reviews it, no bookstores will stock it. And it certainly won't appear in any chains, like hotels, airports and so on, because ALL those outlets buy only pulp paperbacks from the New York Times (yech) 'best seller' list - and all those are chosen arbitrarily from the BIG 6 publishers.

The Blowhards are right. To be a serious novelist you have to have a mental condition, an obsession.

Clive Warner
author of "Appointment in Samara"

Posted by: Clive Warner on June 27, 2003 02:35 PM

Such wonderful writing talent on this site. If all of you give up it will make it possible for more "crap" to be published. I think "real writers" have to be insane to stick with it. Is insanity so wrong? See my quiz below:

A Real Writer has many “special” qualities. Take this test to see if you are a Real Writer. Give yourself one point for each correct answer.

1. You’re in the book store and you’ve just opened your first copy of The Writer’s Market. You:
A. Clutch the book to your bosom and shout, “As God is my witness, I’ll never go hungry again!”
B. Mutter, “$26.99? They’ve got to be kidding.” You ask the salesclerk, “When does this book come out in paperback?”
C. Say to yourself, “I’m going to need a LOT of postage stamps.”

The correct answer is B. A Real Writer can’t afford hardcover.

2. Upon receiving your first rejection letter that isn’t one of those bad photocopies addressed to “Dear Colleague” you:
A. Have it mounted and put into an expensive frame then hang it in a prominent place in your entryway.
B. Go on a huge shopping spree, knowing you will pay off the credit card as soon as you get that advance.
C. Inundate the publisher who sent you the rejection slip with everything you’ve ever written, including your award-winning poem from fifth grade.

The correct answer is C. A Real Writer seizes any and all opportunities because she is not only savvy, she loves to mail stuff. Also she needs as many write-offs as possible (like postage) because, for the last nine years, she has shown a loss on Schedule C of her income tax return.

3. You’ve sent your finished manuscript, a poignant, sensitive piece, (double-spaced, and spell-checked more than once) to an agent who has expressed interest in your work. You do not hear from the agent for 18 months; moreover, she does not return your 23 phone calls. You:
A. Feel certain she is simply a very busy person and will get to your story soon. Nevertheless, you pay a visit to your doctor and begin taking medication.
B. Send her threatening E-Mail under the pseudonym “Drain Bamage.”
C. Chalk it up to her loss and self-publish.

The correct answer is of course A. A Real Writer is neurotic, desperate, and pathetic.

4. A fellow writer in your critique group gives you what you consider hateful criticism on Chapter Five of your brilliant, dual-plot novel. You:
A. Thank her profusely while jabbing a penpoint into the notebook on which you have drawn a caricature of her face.
B. Turn the criticism her way, pointing out that not only did her last book bomb, her dog smells like the men’s toilet in a train station.
C. Thank her for her opinion, but the next day drive by her house and fill the gas tank of her Lexus with teeny, tiny Legos.

The correct answer is A, B, & C. A Real Writer secretly despises all writers, unless the writers are less successful than she is, in which case she adores them.

5. The last book you finished was:
A. The English Patient
B. Catch-22
C. Your reading primer from third grade.

The correct answer is C. Key word: finished. While you have begun more than 22,345 books, you have not actually finished a book since grammar school. A Real Writer is too busy writing to read. (Also she knows that if she reads a book that is better written than her own, she will become melancholic and succumb to writer’s block-- something that is to be avoided at all costs.)

6. You have just finished writing your first young adult novel which you are sure is destined to be a classic, or at least a cult favorite. The first thing you do is:
A. Fax it to Knopf and Harpers and sit by the phone, reading up on bidding wars.
B. Read the manuscript over the phone to your mother, and all your girlfriends from high school who used to call you “Four Eyes.”
C. Go to the mall and buy a new pair of shoes.

The correct answer is C. A Real Writer would never sit by the phone and wait. She would be busy thinking about her next novel. And, as every Real Writer knows, shopping frees the creative spirit, especially shopping for shoes. The Muse loves shoes.

7. You finally publish a book! Yipee! You:
A. Purchase The Unabashed Guide to Self-Promotion and go door-to-door wearing your old girl scout uniform (which still fits, kinda) and sell your books to anyone who will buy them.
B. Donate a hundred signed copies of your book to all the local libraries and schools, nursing homes, children’s hospitals, etc.
C. Mail a copy of your book to your 10 best friends (postage due) and wait for the phone calls of congratulations to come.

The Correct answer is C. A Real Writer craves recognition and approval. The problem is that most Real Writers don’t have 10 friends who are still speaking to them.

8. Upon receipt of your first royalty check, you:
A. Say to yourself, “Goody! Now I can buy that electric pencil sharpener I’ve been eyeing in the Staples catalog.”
B. Hire an attorney to help you decipher the statement.
C. Call the publisher and scream into the phone, “SHOW ME THE MONEY!!”

The correct answer is A by default. A Real Writer is too mousy to call her publisher, and too poor to hire an attorney.

9. You choose a critique group based on:
A. The quality of the writing.
B. The quality of the food being served.
C. The number of members who worship you.

The correct answer is B. A Real Writer never passes up a meal, especially if it’s free.

10. You read Publisher’s Weekly:
A. Once a week.
B. Once in a blue moon.
C. Publisher’s what?

The correct answer is C. A Real Writer never reads any trade books unless they contain a glowing review of her book, in which case she buys 100 copies and puts them on her bookshelf.

11. Your favorite quote is:
A. “Never argue with people who buy ink by the gallon.”
B. “Asking a working writer what he thinks about critics is like asking a lamp-post how it feels about dogs.”
C. “Well, enough about me. Let’s talk about my new novel.”

The correct answer is C. A Real Writer strives to be humble at all times.

12. Your favorite pastime is:
A. Scanning through classics, circling phrases you can “borrow” for future books.
B. Reading over your own manuscripts, laughing your head off at the funny parts and crying your eyes out at the sad parts.
C. Eating large amounts of chocolate in whatever form you can get it.

The correct answer is B. A Real Writer spends waaay too much time alone. Also she is convinced that the world does not appreciate the genius that she is often forced to keep hidden. She is President (and sole member) of her own fan club.

13. You take “medicine:”
A. On a regular basis.
B. Only for PMS symptoms. (See “A”)
C. Only when you need to get the creative juices flowing. (See “A”)

The correct answer is A, B, and C, and your writing reflects it. But hey, you’ve developed coping skills that WORK. You have learned that, when all is said and done, it’s the process that counts and, dammit, you’re tenacious. You will never give up. Because you’re a Real Writer.

Scoring: If you scored a 13 you’re a Real Writer. I feel sorry for you.
If you scored a zero you’re probably a Successful Writer, not to be confused with a Real Writer. Real Writers never associate with Successful Writers unless it’s to borrow money.

Posted by: Mary on June 28, 2003 01:31 PM

I'm a professional writer with eleven books in print, and I've been writing novels full-time since 1998. The reason I am making a living from my books is because I am one of those few/obsessed/idiot types, I write in multiple genres, and I never gave up.

Writing a book is just the beginning of the battle. It is extremely difficult to sell a book to a major publisher. It's even harder to be a success once you do. For every published author, there are at least 20,000 writers who tried and gave up at some stage of the game. Only a small percentage of published authors make a success living from writing books, and an even tinier percentage of the successful ones become bestsellers.

I've enjoyed reading this essay and all the comments made, but I think the point everyone will agree on is that each writer is different. Some are happy with the joy of writing itself and don't care if they get published. Some won't rest until they achieve breakout bestseller success. Most, I think, fall somewhere between those two extremes. The trick is to find the place where you are happiest.

As for me, I have seven books being released this year including my first science fiction hardcover. I make a good living, but I work very hard for it -- I write ten to twelve hours a day, seven days a week, 48 weeks a year. And while I don't get paid for it, I've been keeping a daily weblog about my writing and life in general for the last two years: http://starlines.blogspot.com

Sometimes even for the pros, it's not about the money.

Sheila Kelly
aka S.L. Viehl, Gena Hale, Jessica Hall & Rebecca Kelly

Posted by: Sheila on June 29, 2003 05:51 AM

Most fiction writers start by writing short stories. Many years ago it used to be standard practice to submit a manuscript to only one magazine at a time. It was hard to cheat because editors would only accept original manuscripts, and making additional originals required retyping the entire story. In those days most writers made carbon copies for their files, but carbon copies looked like carbon copies and often looked like hell. Then in recent times it became possible to make multiple "original" manuscripts either with good photocopy machines or computer printers. Since then the magazine editors have been swamped with manuscripts and the term "multiple submissions" has come into common usage. The number of writers has increased with the population, but the number of submissions has increased exponentially. Meanwhile the market for short fiction has virtually dried up. The New Yorker used to be the best short story market in the world--and probably still is. However, they have cut back from publishing around 200 short stories a year to less than fifty. Many other magazines that used to print short stories have either stopped using fiction or have gone out of business altogether. The literary journals are the best places to get stories published, but many of them pay nothing.

Posted by: Bill Delaney on June 29, 2003 03:50 PM

Do read Carolyn See's practical book, "Making a Literary Life." If you like it, email her and she will respond right back.

Posted by: Mary on June 29, 2003 09:24 PM

Just a point to ponder with all these excellent reasons "not to" enter the craft of solitary confinement with a keyboard ...Dare I write for any less a reason as one choses to do anything that transforms any thought, dream, or desire into an action that places it into reality? If I exclude myself from any activity based on statistical data as a measure whether I will succeed at whatever that dream might be...to what authority do we relinquish the value of our dreams and desires?

Today my self worth is no longer measured by my net worth and writing is less a means to an end as it is but a singular component of a whole in one life on this planet...better to have a mind at work than work on the mind.(smile) In my opinion only of course...

Posted by: Mark on July 1, 2003 09:49 AM

Being one who is artistically bent ("bent" being the perfect word for several reasons), I've learned the cruel realities of trying to support myself and my family via the arts. So, I've settled into an editing/proofreading position in corporate America, telling myself it's close enough.... And, ya know what, it is. Plus, it comes with a salary and health plan. I'm still an artist - that's something that's not measured by having to share/force one's work on an unreceptive audience. It's a way of looking at the world and reacting to it.

Posted by: Theron on July 1, 2003 11:01 AM

Something I haven't seen mentioned here yet is that most business start-ups in America (restaurants, bed-and-breakfasts, small retail stores and so on) also fail, usually within a year or two, after consuming the lives and savings of the people who start them. Many of the ones which do remain solvent are just barely so, without much prospect of ever providing extra income for the savings or retirement of their proprietors, who often work far more than 40 hours per week. If we are having a talk about writing as a bad deal for the writer, shouldn't that talk acknowledge that farming, running your own deli, owner-operator truck driving, or self-employment of any kind is often just as bad a deal, just as tragic, just as full of misplaced hopes, and accidents that pitch a well-meaning and dilligent person into poverty? And that hasn't stopped Americans from going for these and other such ventures in large numbers since before the republic began.

It's not insanity, as Michael asserts. Its Americanism. Why else are "Death of a Salesman", "The Great Gatsby" and "The Grapes of Wrath" among the set pieces of our literature? They all deal with the bitterness of frustration, the eternal struggle of hope against failure. The "business failure" is our domestic American tragedy, full of all the passion, fear, yearning, self-loathing and sorrow that revenge dramas held for the 17th century English.

It also seems to me that the train of thought Michael draws from, about the relative merit of findng a comfortable job with good pay and retirement, working hard, keeping your nose clean and not expecting too much, has been articulated before, ever since Ben Franklin -- who himself notably failed to follow this advice. Such a course is no insurance against disaster, alcoholism, workplace abuse, crime, depression, chaos, civil unrest, job loss, car accidents, robbery of a hundred sorts, etcetera. Even brilliant people go bankrupt, even smart, careful people lose their shirt. On a world scale, I think you could argue that people who do their best to follow all that good advice, so commonly end up in disaster *anyway* that it doesn't add much additional risk to go out and follow your dream, whether that dream is writing a novel, or sneaking into the USA, or playing in the majors.

Ed

Posted by: Edward Sevcik on July 5, 2003 01:40 PM

I write because I cannot do otherwise; like the scorpion, it is my nature.

Posted by: Beth Strang Horton on July 6, 2003 11:04 AM

Ed: Touche.

Posted by: Mary on July 6, 2003 10:52 PM

I have enjoyed reading this discussion.I learned from many of its contributors and especially appreciated the contribution of Edward Scevik.
I apologize for making a third contribution to it, but I am less guilty about this knowing that no one has to read it, and that other contributors can make their contributions without being disturbed by it.
Thinking about this discussion I realized that my whole life has been built in a way on a premise opposed to the main thesis of the article. The main thesis as I understand it is that it is really not worthwhile to invest all the time and effort required into writing a book, since this will not justify itself economically.
But I began and continue and will continue for so long as I can with the idea that ' making money' is not what writing books is fundamentally about. And that the writing of books is for me far more important than making money. Now admittedly most people cannot afford such a position. And had it not been for the hard work of my parents who gave to each of their children in their lifetime almost all of their financial resources( which were by no means very large, and certainly not by today's standards) I thanks to them , and to living quite modestly have been able to devote myself to the writing of books. I assumed this to be perhaps wrongly a ' higher task' a way also of contributing to knowledge, but more of creating something of value, of bringing to the world just a bit more of truth and beauty and goodness. I can write for hours about what books mean to me , and why they represent something higher. In my mind is always of course 'The Book of Books' which has been the heart of my religious life in many ways.
In any case I have written many many manuscripts mostly unpublished, and will hopefully this fall have a seventh book published. I made very little money in doing this.
I do not regret the money part, but only that I have not written better, and helped more those I wanted to help through my writing.
The love of Literature, the worlds upon worlds which can be found in books are in some way in my mind still beyond money.
"Money" someone I prayed next to this morning " is only a means to other things" One of the best of those things is books.
Perhaps in the ideal world each and every human being has a book on their own name written by them through their life actions which tells their story.
In the Jewish tradition a holy sage is considered a Torah scroll,and sacred.
So many people I have known have lived sacred stories which will go untold.We need their books also.
I apologize again for taking yet a third turn here, and thank the writers of the article for inspiring the whole discussion.
I wonder if they are planning a book around it, and related subjects.

Posted by: Shalom Freedman on July 14, 2003 02:39 AM

I think, therefore I think I am - a writer, an artist, an actor, a carbinetmaker, a potter.... You get the picture. The difference in thinking and being is DOING. If you DO it, then you can truly say I AM.

I am an artist. I am also a writer. I have written and been produced for television. I have also written a novelette (sitting on a high shelf) and a large non-fiction book. The latter is now being made ready to be released on CD. The subject matter is of little interest to the general public, being only of interest to those who enjoy esotericism, Medieval and Renaissance philosophy, insight into secret societies, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and speculative history.

The thought of pursuing an agent and a publisher are horrendously depressing, especially since most of the books on these subjects are published not in the US, but in the UK. The cost of mailing a manuscript which is a bit over a ream, to several publishers and/or literary agencies, is daunting and expensive. Along with these obstacles are all the ones that Michael and Aaron have written about.

Hence, I also pursued the web publishing, but have now been influenced by someone who insists that the book be put on CD so that it can be offered on my site. No, I don't plan on its becoming a "best seller". I do, however, feel that I might recoup some of the cost. The time that I put into it is mine and mine alone. I loved doing the research, and I loved doing the writing. For that, no one can pay me. I guess that makes me one of the lunatics.

Posted by: Deirdre on July 14, 2003 08:25 AM

hello there,

I have just come across this site and read enough comments to put me off writing for good. I currently run a independent publishing house in Scotland, by independant I mean , my husband and I produce, edit and own a successful tourist shopping mag. At the tender age of 25 and a mother of two children i have always 'dreamed' of writing a book on my life. Why my own biography? I have a story to tell, things to get off my chest,and make some money doing it would be a bonus. writing has always been a friend of mine. It lets me get things out in the open if not for someone else to read then just for myself. Just one book,although I have thought about doing short stories. What advice would you give someone like me?

Posted by: heather on August 8, 2003 05:44 PM

I believe I have found my conscience in this sea of voices. I have long to tell my story but I can't stand the embarassment more than anything else. Should I say that? Oh, that's too personal. Do I dare reveil my thoughts and life experiences all the while convincing myself it's great therapy. My story is every bit as fascinating,suspenseful,horrifying,powerful,sad,and pathetic and a tribute to humanbeings and their amazing ability to overcome anything. As I said my story is just like everbody elses. Should I write?

Posted by: simone on August 13, 2003 10:02 PM

I live on disability pension which in Lithuania is like a scorn from human dignity. But I did not like to complain. I was a painter, now I became a Christian and alreafy for many years. Writing books and publishing demands much work, but in current my situation it is yhe only one way to share may face and this is not only my pleasure but the main duty and Christian responsobility.
I simply have no other choixe, and even dont wish to gave it.
But I am fully impotent to do any without though some your financial support. So I consequently dared to start this e-mail and wait though some response from you. The computer I now use is not mine and I would have access to it free only till the 4 of September.
Deaar brothers in Christ if you could , please help me to stay in toush with the world and further. I desperately need the new computer, but the only way to receive it for the disabled is to plea for your charity and trust in God's care and provision.

My correct postal address is

Tomas Karkalas
Liepu 25-31
Klaipeda 5800
Lithuania

God bless you and all you do!

Posted by: Tomas on August 25, 2003 03:32 PM

Okay, sorry to hop onto this fine thread so late in the game...but I've just read this entire string, enjoyed it immensely (Go Tom Levenson!), and wanted to share a few thoughts.

I've been writing professionally for close to 20 years, as a newspaper reporter, magazine writer and editor, and, in the past six years, as a ghostwriter of business books and, yes, the author of my own book (The Startup Garden: How Growing A Business Grows You. There's my shameless plug.)

My first response to all this kvetching about the challenges of making a living in this god-forsaken industry is this: so? Why are so few authors making a living? Could it have something to do with the markets? The sad truth is that we live in a nation in which a small percentage of individuals care to buy the books that most of us would care to write. To make a living at this game we have to produce books that, in the marketplace of ideas, appeal to enough individuals to generate a salary for us producers. Not only that, but we have to sell enough books in that equation to provide a living for the folks in publishing (our partners in this endeavor,) not to mention a whole group of folks who at this point have gone unmentioned: the noble booksellers themselves, who sell books out of love and who rarely make a great living themselves.

Moreover, and this is a sad but harsh truth, the success of the books out there in the market is largely the responsibility of the authors themselves. It's not enough to write the book, and its not enough to get the book published. You have to do whatever it takes (partnering with the right publisher, doing whatever creative and resource promotion--through the web, sure!) to ensure the commercial success of your book! Few of us enjoy shilling but it is part of the game--unless you are one of those rarified few who has earned the ability to have a publicity machine behind you. (Oh, and guess what? Book reviews don't sell books.)

Here's the one thing that sometimes makes me impatient about the process of writing. The point is to write, and to do it everyday. To find your joy in the work, to do it for discovery, to love reading, to do this above all because you care. I tire of writing about writing, thinking about thinking, blaming publishers and agents and the publishing industry for making it structurally difficult for writers to get published. It is a lousy business, but I haven't yet seen a better way to produce that rare great book.

I've found that great books spring from insipred, determined, passionate, and disciplined individuals. But there's always a team backing them. Too few great editors and agents and publicists and silent supporters go unnoticed.

So. I do this because I love the work. Like so many others, I make compromises (ghostwriting is not what I had in mind for a career when I was 10, but I enjoy the work,) and continue to write, patiently, simply trying to get better, and to build an audience. I try to use the web to nurture an audience, to keep a modest blog tied to the content matter of my first book. I find places to write the things I care about. I try not to seek validation for my first book from huge sales (cause it has not YET found it's huge audience..)

At any rate, I send support and encouragement to anyone toiling at the trade. I believe it's possible to make a living at this racquet. And I guess. to that, I'd add one truism from comedy writing: there's three rules about what makes something funny. It's just that no one knows what they are. Same goes for writing. There are three rules for guaranteeing a decent living from this. When I learn them I'll be sure to post them here.

Posted by: Tom Ehrenfeld on August 31, 2003 01:12 AM

there goes my shattered dream!! i guess i wont right for ur sake huh?..anywazy nah..if do right a book ill tell the stories if its a success or not..wana whats the title? DONT WRITE A BOOK by Fredriech

Posted by: maya on September 4, 2003 05:39 AM

It would seem the discussion stream has touched a nerve. I have enjoyed the discussion. Thank you to everyone who has contributed, and thank you Michael for setting it up. As I am one of those crazy people who have a full time job, a part-time job, and go to school, my time is short. Entering this writing late in the game, I have had the benefit of reading a lengthy examination into whether or not a book is worth writing. Though my words most likely will be read by very few, I feel compelled to comment. I am a writer. I earn my living partially by recording statements, believed to be facts, and then make those statements available to my employer. I am a writer in that I create problem reports on issues that need to be addressed. I am a writer in that I communicate with co-workers through memos and email. I am a writer in that I enjoy communicating in Chat rooms. Now that I have convinced myself and maybe a few of you that I am a writer I have a confession to make. I have always hated writing. However, as I have gotten older I have felt compelled to write more often. Perhaps it is a need to comment that comes with age. Perhaps it is a need to contribute. It is this need that has lead to my exploring writing as a hobby. My success remains to be seen. If nothing else, my hope is that by writing, my mind will stay sharp into old age. Also, perhaps, I might make some spare change by selling an article or two. But deep down, I would really like to write at least one book before I die. And if this one book is a run-a-way best seller, maybe I could live the life of my dreams, and maybe write another.
Worthy of mention are many of the tangent points that surfaced in this exploration. The most important of which attacked the priorities of this country. I whole heartedly agree and would like to clarify and add to the tangents. Never before in the known history of the world have six billion or more people populated it. Arguably, the world is on a course that may lead to a famine of Biblical proportions. The simple logistics of feeding and clothing that many people should give any world leader pause. Many of the world leaders who look into the food supplies for their people are starting to give pause. Out of date farming methods are contributing to the erosion of the top soil. The solution, no till farming, currently is not being embraced due to the cost of re-equipping farms. The longer the nations of the world keep from practicing no till farming, the greater amount of the worlds farming top soil will be eroded, leaving less farmable land over time.
Further complicating matters, this huge world population is tearing through the rainforests of the world recklessly. The world is currently experiencing a mass extinction rate comparable to the fabled asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs. The casualties of our resource use and pollution policies are not limited to the land, but the world’s oceans as well. Though there are people who are working to save the environment, the combined effects seem only to slightly slow the inevitable. With the onset of the pacific region reaching new levels of industrialization, unchecked pollution emissions are contributing to global warming. Complicate this further with a thinning ozone layer and years of past industrial pollution and we have our current state of environmental problems.
The 6 billion people or more who walk the earth contribute to the potential of a highly communicable disease spreading through out the world. Modern travel by airplane now makes it possible for a particularly nasty airborne germ to make its way around the world in three days. Many people, even in the most industrialized and modern of countries, can’t afford medical care. However, tens of billions of dollars are spent every year for entertainment. Among the highest paid are the few artists, directors, actors, authors, and professional sports people. The point has been made that we pay the people who take care of our children, our future, maybe 15K a year for a 13 to 15 hour day. However we will pay entertainers tens of millions. To add to the irony is the lack of interest and involvement in the political system of the U.S. The very thing that gives us our freedoms and rights is left uncared for, much like our aging infrastructure. Our written words are not our only legacy. Without a planet that can sustain life how good of a legacy will our words be?
Getting back on topic, I find Chat rooms with entertaining people to be filled with idea’s and a great source for new material. Often times, if you get a good crew the conversation is at a high level and can last for hours. Additionally I found my reading speeds increased with frequent use of fast moving chat rooms. Ordinarily that time would just be wasted; however, you can print up the chat session and potentially use some of that material at a later time. Also if you walk away from a chat session with a better perspective on how things are, the time is not a waste. I would agree that surfing the web and Blogging are very entertaining. I would also agree blogging will never replace a well written book, though Chat rooms can be very deep and help someone put concepts into words.
Writing a book and getting it published to me is the same thing as being an entrepreneur. You can work for a company and take fewer risks, but you don’t get the pay off. You might be able to live comfortably, but you will never get rich working for someone else. The biggest value I see from reading the discussion stream is the reality of the number of people who actually make it big. With that in mind I will love the process more and I go forward with the realization that my success is probably as likely as that of a new restaurant.
I am one of those Journal writer types, but my uses of it are not for book writing. I write first thing in the morning to clear my thoughts for the rest of the day. Worries, doubts, frustrations, anger all the things that can keep you from being in your peak zone are reflected on first thing in the morning. Once written on they don’t haunt me for the rest of the day and I am able to perform at my peak. The value of keeping the writing is probably minimal at best. When writing for school or work, I prefer trying to write the final product the first time I put pen to paper or type in front of the computer. If I organize my thought before I put them onto paper the writing process and rewriting process goes much more smoothly.
I definitely won’t quite my day job after reading all of the points set forth here. In the defense of writing a book, if it is your life’s passion then do it. If you talk to the people living in old age homes it is the things they did not do that they are haunted by, not the things they did. To use the old cliché, Life is a journey, not an end destination. Do what you can to enrich your life and the lives of the ones you love. It tends to be better to actually do something instead of wasting all your time thinking about it. And it seems to be a truth that there is a multiple reward for every disciplined effort. In following my life goals I wanted to be a published author. If this response to the discussion stream makes it on the website a special thanks to Michael Blowhard, I am now a published writer and I get to cross off one item on my life’s to do list.

Best wishes
ShipShape

Posted by: shipshape on October 12, 2003 04:52 PM

It would seem the discussion stream has touched a nerve. I have enjoyed the discussion. Thank you to everyone who has contributed, and thank you Michael for setting it up. As I am one of those crazy people who have a full time job, a part-time job, and go to school, my time is short. Entering this writing late in the game, I have had the benefit of reading a lengthy examination into whether or not a book is worth writing. Though my words most likely will be read by very few, I feel compelled to comment. I am a writer. I earn my living partially by recording statements, believed to be facts, and then make those statements available to my employer. I am a writer in that I create problem reports on issues that need to be addressed. I am a writer in that I communicate with co-workers through memos and email. I am a writer in that I enjoy communicating in Chat rooms. Now that I have convinced myself and maybe a few of you that I am a writer I have a confession to make. I have always hated writing. However, as I have gotten older I have felt compelled to write more often. Perhaps it is a need to comment that comes with age. Perhaps it is a need to contribute. It is this need that has lead to my exploring writing as a hobby. My success remains to be seen. If nothing else, my hope is that by writing, my mind will stay sharp into old age. Also, perhaps, I might make some spare change by selling an article or two. But deep down, I would really like to write at least one book before I die. And if this one book is a run-a-way best seller, maybe I could live the life of my dreams, and maybe write another.

Worthy of mention are many of the tangent points that surfaced in this exploration. The most important of which attacked the priorities of this country. I whole heartedly agree and would like to clarify and add to the tangents. Never before in the known history of the world have six billion or more people populated it. Arguably, the world is on a course that may lead to a famine of Biblical proportions. The simple logistics of feeding and clothing that many people should give any world leader pause. Many of the world leaders who look into the food supplies for their people are starting to give pause. Out of date farming methods are contributing to the erosion of the top soil. The solution, no till farming, currently is not being embraced due to the cost of re-equipping farms. The longer the nations of the world keep from practicing no till farming, the greater amount of the worlds farming top soil will be eroded, leaving less farmable land over time.

Further complicating matters, this huge world population is tearing through the rainforests of the world recklessly. The world is currently experiencing a mass extinction rate comparable to the fabled asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs. The casualties of our resource use and pollution policies are not limited to the land, but the world’s oceans as well. Though there are people who are working to save the environment, the combined effects seem only to slightly slow the inevitable. With the onset of the pacific region reaching new levels of industrialization, unchecked pollution emissions are contributing to global warming. Complicate this further with a thinning ozone layer and years of past industrial pollution and we have our current state of environmental problems.

The 6 billion people or more who walk the earth contribute to the potential of a highly communicable disease spreading through out the world. Modern travel by airplane now makes it possible for a particularly nasty airborne germ to make its way around the world in three days. Many people, even in the most industrialized and modern of countries, can’t afford medical care. However, tens of billions of dollars are spent every year for entertainment. Among the highest paid are the few artists, directors, actors, authors, and professional sports people. The point has been made that we pay the people who take care of our children, our future, maybe 15K a year for a 13 to 15 hour day. However we will pay entertainers tens of millions. To add to the irony is the lack of interest and involvement in the political system of the U.S. The very thing that gives us our freedoms and rights is left uncared for, much like our aging infrastructure. Our written words are not our only legacy. Without a planet that can sustain life how good of a legacy will our words be?

Getting back on topic, I find Chat rooms with entertaining people to be filled with idea’s and a great source for new material. Often times, if you get a good crew the conversation is at a high level and can last for hours. Additionally I found my reading speeds increased with frequent use of fast moving chat rooms. Ordinarily that time would just be wasted; however, you can print up the chat session and potentially use some of that material at a later time. Also if you walk away from a chat session with a better perspective on how things are, the time is not a waste. I would agree that surfing the web and Blogging are very entertaining. I would also agree blogging will never replace a well written book, though Chat rooms can be very deep and help someone put concepts into words.

Writing a book and getting it published to me is the same thing as being an entrepreneur. You can work for a company and take fewer risks, but you don’t get the pay off. You might be able to live comfortably, but you will never get rich working for someone else. The biggest value I see from reading the discussion stream is the reality of the number of people who actually make it big. With that in mind I will love the process more and I go forward with the realization that my success is probably as likely as that of a new restaurant.

I am one of those Journal writer types, but my uses of it are not for book writing. I write first thing in the morning to clear my thoughts for the rest of the day. Worries, doubts, frustrations, anger all the things that can keep you from being in your peak zone are reflected on first thing in the morning. Once written on they don’t haunt me for the rest of the day and I am able to perform at my peak. The value of keeping the writing is probably minimal at best. When writing for school or work, I prefer trying to write the final product the first time I put pen to paper or type in front of the computer. If I organize my thought before I put them onto paper the writing process and rewriting process goes much more smoothly.

I definitely won’t quite my day job after reading all of the points set forth here. In the defense of writing a book, if it is your life’s passion then do it. If you talk to the people living in old age homes it is the things they did not do that they are haunted by, not the things they did. To use the old cliché, Life is a journey, not an end destination. Do what you can to enrich your life and the lives of the ones you love. It tends to be better to actually do something instead of wasting all your time thinking about it. And it seems to be a truth that there is a multiple reward for every disciplined effort. In following my life goals I wanted to be a published author. If this response to the discussion stream makes it on the website a special thanks to Michael Blowhard, I am now a published writer and I get to cross off one item on my life’s to do list.

Best wishes
ShipShape

Posted by: shipshape on October 12, 2003 04:55 PM

Ummmmm ....... very interesting this last hour or so has been reading all the respective's views, opinions and ideas.

I have found all of the above, very diverse and informative to someone like myself who has never written a book, but has been asked to consider doing so.

I have had a sense of reluctance to write because of the problem I have with dyslexia. Hence my reading is average. But I perservere!

I have had an amazing life full of some of the most amazing stories and events. Until 1998 when I was awarded the a Austrailian Business Women's Award then inducted into the 2000 Australian Business Women's Hall of Fame, I believed I was pushing life uphill.

Born in Canada,immigrated to Australia in 1982 with hubby and 2 daughters only to be left by hubby six months later. I had not much than hundred dollars in my pocket, was renting a house and had no education or professional skills.

Just this year I retired from a million dollar home care company I founded from a dream and opened in 1996.

Over the seven years it has taken to become a successful Business Women, despite the odds, and the hundreds of wonderful stories behind the running of the business is what many want me to share with others.

So even though I felt a little discouraged with reading about the 'hard bits' in this dialogue I still feel, that for me to put to paper where I have been and what I have done would be of great interest and value to others.

So for those feeling they have a great story to share about themselve why not consider finding a medium of relaying it to the rest of the world.

cheers from the land downunder

Posted by: Barbara Macleod on October 15, 2003 04:04 AM

WOW! You talk about "obsessed lunatics" that they just gotta. What is so bad in that? I feel that we are "all" obsessed lunatics to different degrees, depending on what the situation is.
What is so wrong with wanting to write something that is bitterly honest?
I am in process of writing, and no I don't think that I will make millions. Although I want to get the truth out there. If I make ANYTHING off it,that will be a bonus, I am not holding my breath. This obsessed lunatic is also a realist.
Why isn't it fun? I have no dead line, I am having quite a good time writing.
The question I have is about the self-publishing.
I would like your input on Trafford.
Sincerely,
Faith

Posted by: Faith on October 16, 2003 05:21 PM

This got me the chance to redirect my thoughts on finishing my book about self, leadership, and church. Thanks!

Posted by: anne on October 25, 2003 08:47 AM

Well Michael, I stumbled into your arena by chance or maybe destiny only to feel as if I should be shooting craps instead of grinding through this story that is screaming to be told. While it is soberly true what you claim, there are slivers of truth that remain undiscovered in this tired and redundant world, worthy of personal inconvenience and possible indifference.
I will say 95% that is written should be not only compacted but put in a trash compacter. That leaves 5 percent out there a delicacy to the mind. So while it is easy to discourage, you might also encourage while your at it. There maybe someone out there who falls into that 5 percent tuning into your station for some advice. (Maybe even now!) Sincerely, David M. ComoJr.
Soon to be published "Live Through it"

Posted by: David Como on October 29, 2003 07:28 PM

I have been writing short articles for several years in a quarterly blues magazine. I have decided I would like to write a novel on the subject of blues music and life. It's title will be "The Devil's Music: Portrait of a Bluesman" It will be in part documentary, but primarily will follow the life of a gifted musician born and raised in Greenwich Village in the late 50's early 60's. I found you on the net, and your input on writing, although quite negative, did give me some usefull information. How do I go about posting my story on the Web? Self publishing? Other publishing options? Thanks, Don Testa

Posted by: Don Testa on November 19, 2003 12:37 PM

still if you have a true passion for writing at least give it a shot
if only so you don't look back when you're 80 sitting in your rocking stair thinking what if i could have,would have should have

Posted by: p.ling on December 13, 2003 06:04 AM

Hello all. My name is Adeel and i wish to write a novel. I am 18 years old and was wandering if you guys can give me advices as to how i should approach this project.

thanx a bunck

Posted by: Adeel on December 18, 2003 02:36 PM

Hello my name is Selena and I think I have an interesting true story to tell but I'm not the sharpest knife in the rack. Here is a little of what I have to tell .Almost being born with a silver spoon in my mouth to losing it all. To be an only child that lost her father at an early age. To become a very young mother. To have been abused and shot at and in a bad marriage. Being a victim of rape and dark secrets. From being a Private Investigator and trying to take care of my present husbands dying parents and alcoholic mother. To where I'm at now figthing Major Depression. Please tell me if this sounds like a typical story or worth writing .And how to start if you think it would be worth writing.

Posted by: Selena on December 21, 2003 02:08 PM

Right......well obviously there have been a lot of comments posted by...completely random people from across the Globe, so perhaps, therefore, there is nothing left for me to add to this "discussion". But, I have to say, it seems to me that this "Michael" person (if that even is his real name) seems to have some personal vendetta against those of us who actually have suceeded in our writing. Now, obviously, I cannot possibly comprehend why this would be, but perhaps he feel slight jealousy towards others who possess a ... gift?
What I would say to anyone who is thinking of writing a book is - Don't let yourself be put down or disheartened by Michael and people like him. You can do it...you just need to believe in yourself.
I hope I've added some new dimension here......i doubt it of course.....but there's always hope.

Bye all

Posted by: Andrew Thorpe-Apps on December 22, 2003 06:37 PM

Throughout it's existensse, many great book were written by those in the Empire. This being the same Empire that brought so much goodness to the dark places in the World.

Long live the Empire

Posted by: The Empire on December 23, 2003 06:36 AM

Your wife was right. You are a kill joy. It sounds as if you are scared that you do not have what it takes to be one of those few hundred successful writers. If no one had the courage to embark in something new we would have nothing let alone good books. Now please excuse me while I get back to writing. You may never see my name published, but i won't have any regrets.

Posted by: paul buijs on January 16, 2004 06:48 PM

Hi all,
There are some really interesting comments regarding book writing, For the last couple of years i have always been thinking about writing a book, "I'd love to sit down and write a good Book" these words came to mind alot recently, I wouldn't actually call it a dream but definitley a hurdle in my life that i will have to attempt to jump. I never thought about the publishing side, Nor the money, I have no writing creativity expereince, In Fact I never finished secondary school my puntuation is dreadfull and if it wasn't for spellcheck i probably wouldn't understand my own tyoing, . But yesterday evening i was working from home and i was waiting on a few things to finish before i could disconnect from the office,In this period i decided to start my book. I live in Ireland and i have been to NY before so i decided that it will start in NY. So it did .I never really thought about how the storie would go, But the word just came flowingIt was an exciting expereince....I have finished my opening chapter, I brought it into my partner lorraine asked her to have a little read and tell me what she thinks, I was very exicited and anxious to hear what she thought,.. She looked at me after reading it and said "Graham, Do you really expect me to believe that you wrote this, Where did you get it from?" I actually had to convince her that it was the start of my adventure, She believed me after a few minutes and she now belives that it is going to be a great book. There is so much potential. It was a real confidence boost, So this morning I find myself in work in the office and Im searching through a search engine with "how to write a book" I came accross this site i feel that I should tell this story and let you all know that It is great to write with or without expereince it is a great feeling looking at the paragrahphs increase. So don't forget that are great books out there and great writers but there are also alot more to come. Hopefully i will not get caught up in the whole publishing side of it, But if i think that i might make money from it , I think that i will be sucked in..
Graham Hyland
graham.hyland@superquinn.ie
let me know you comments

Posted by: Graham Hyland on January 17, 2004 07:46 AM

If i could write a book and one person gets a giggle out of it and was happy to have read it, I'd be happy.Good on you Graham H. I hope to follow in your footsteps.

Posted by: Matthew Fox on January 17, 2004 05:07 PM

A friend of mine at a different forum publicly expressed his intent to become well-known as a writer by creating the next, big, Pulitzer Prize worthy story. He informed us all of how eager and assured he is of this project, and how he hopes that it will change the world for the better. I offered my support as both a friend and as an aspiring writer.

His dedication is commendable and he received much accolades, but some expressed concerns, knowing that putting so much hope into writing can prove to be dangerous for an individual's wallet and sanity. One such naysayer posted a link that directed me here so as to open the eyes of those who may have the wrong idea about making a living in the arts.

My friend did not say that he wants to make a living from writing and neither did I but it is good to have seen the truth of the matter in case this ever became our intents. Despite what The Wife says, Michael, I think that your words are nothing but helpful for aspiring writers. The truth may discourage some "romantic" people from pursuing their dream but it is for their own benefit that they know the risks involved.

Something that I must disagree on is your classifying of writers into certain (and mostly laughable) types. Using myself as an example, I am a seventeen year old who writes for several reasons -- the possible aspiration of financial gain is not one that hit me until recently. Firstly, I write with my girlfriend, who is a very talented artist, because we have so much to say in regards to humanity, happiness, and everything in between and we believe that it is within our ability to improve the "human condition" with our creations. This is something that most artists have been trying to do for centuries, I think.

Another reason why her and I write and draw is because it is something that we genuinely enjoy doing. Though many find it hard to believe, we have written a novel sized fantasy story and the experience, to say the least, was wonderful. Even today, we continue to create art for personal enjoyment and for others to find enjoyment in as well.

Profit-wise, the thought of making money doing what we do best is one that compels us to improve and be much more dedicated to the arts. Sara and I would, ideally, love to be doing little more than making art for the rest of our lives but are aware that this goal may be unattainable when putting food on the table and paying bills is considered.

Does the knowledge of possible failure discourage me from writing, personally? No, it does not, but I know a number of people who may want to never try to dabble in the arts (again) for their own good. I have other friends who were so inspired by my own creative drive that they tried countless times to do what I do. However dedicated they are, a lack of talent and purpose inhibit their potential and I find it difficult to support them.

As a side note, I did try (with minimal effort) to get the aforementioned story published but was met with no success. Financially speaking, it is a very costly process to have a story eventually published and is very out of reach for someone of my age. Professional editors charge a small fortune for their services and most publishers will not even consider you without having your work professionally edited. That should be a suitable heads up for anyone who thinks that the transition from "written" to "published" is a cheap one.

Also, I did put that story online recently and am satisfied by the idea that it is available for whoever is interested. Of course, I would still love to receive compensation for all of the hard work put into creating it, but I am young yet and inexperienced. The time for payment will come and, for now, I should focus primarily on improvement.

Posted by: Matt Albrecht on January 31, 2004 09:04 PM

I'll be honest: I don't want to make money writing. I simply want to create something that is my original piece of art, something that I'll enjoy reading when I'm 90 years old, and parhaps something that a few friends and my family will enjoy. I can't say I have ever written anything before (Save a few short stories and poems); however, I look forward to writing, and it's a personal goal of mine to have written a book before i 'kick the bucket'. I'm only 20 years old, and the the thought of writing an entire book does seem a little overwhelming, but like i said before, i'm determined to persue writing, and eventually squeeze a book out. I like what you've written, but I also am a dreamer, and I hope the idea of finishing a book does not become a flase hope. Hope is the only thing that keeps us humans going...

Posted by: Jacob on February 14, 2004 02:31 PM

Would it be worth while me writing or someone writing me a book....One day in dallas,I was cutting the grass in dallas tx, When a dallas police car drove past, asked where i was from,took me downtown dallas, and ended up in 2 jails for 5 and a half months...took to airport at gun point, and many other exsperiences. ON 2 acassions having a gun pulled on me by 2 police officers.1 ON THE FREEWAY LBJ...THE OTHER IN MY HOME OF PLANO TX...shackeld in chains around my waist to my anckles...sexual acts was tried on me in jail but never suceeded,because of my british accent. in all it was very bizare...and have many tails to tell of my exsperience in prison...thanks john fothergill

Posted by: john fothergill on February 24, 2004 03:21 AM

Would it be worth while me writing or someone writing me a book....One day in dallas,I was cutting the grass in dallas tx, When a dallas police car drove past, asked where i was from,took me downtown dallas, and ended up in 2 jails for 5 and a half months...took to airport at gun point, and many other exsperiences. ON 2 acassions having a gun pulled on me by 2 police officers.1 ON THE FREEWAY LBJ...THE OTHER IN MY HOME OF PLANO TX...shackeld in chains around my waist to my anckles...sexual acts was tried on me in jail but never suceeded,because of my british accent. in all it was very bizare...and have many tails to tell of my exsperience in prison...thanks john fothergill

Posted by: john fothergill on February 24, 2004 03:21 AM

Wow
Such interesting input. I have written a children's book. Is it good? Yes it is. Has anyone else read it? Not yet.
Other than my immediate family. Of course they think it is great!! I always longed to write a novel but felt getting my feet wet with a small project would be better. Someone out there help me out. Reading the comments I begin to feel a lucky break would be nice,just the right person in the publishing industry to say we have something here, "This could work". I question my own writing abilities in this small story. However, I do know my story content is good and even a ""older reader"" wants to know from the beginning to the end about Jade's Star. I have a job( financial gain although always welcomed)is not my motivation. Lots of childrens books out there. Basically my question to some who have commented. Where does one start???? Do I start with publishing companies? Who can you trust???? Some old fashion personal experience and maybe even a break would help. If it is good will someone steal my story. This story may have cartoon potential. Last but not least by reading all the comments stirred by Michael, I thank you!!! Writing is tough. Published or not. YES, YES, YES, for all who are gagging over my question and answer comment. Reality check!! This little story could suck. . cmhjjjj@yahoo.com

Posted by: Connie on February 24, 2004 03:01 PM

i need info on how to get my storys published?

Posted by: john on March 2, 2004 01:37 PM

Gees, lots of stuff here to take in. I suppose I'll just comment on what comes to mind as I type.

As far as writing, whether it be writing articles or a book or poetry or anything, it's important that you do it and not simply talk of doing it. I've read numerous accounts by authors, some very good authors and others I've never heard of, who give this very advice of doing. Write it, whatever it is. And worry about the rest later.

With that being said, I don't have a manuscript. I guess I do, but it's still in bits and pieces rolling around in my head and floating through cyberspace in various emails I've shot to loved ones and colleages. A big round of applause to those of you who have actually written or typed something. I write daily as a journalist so at least I'm writing, but it's not the kind of writing I hope to do someday.

Hope. That's a good one, too. I don't know if anyone has mentioned that aspect of it, but hope is alive and thriving. And it's an essential part of life and writing. Without it, we'd be lost. And a sad bunch at that. So, here's to hope. No, hope can't get the book written nor can it get you the book published, but it can make you feel good on the days you don't feel like feeling good. And as a writer, shit, as a person, I have lots of those days.

When it comes down to it, I think writers write because they enjoy writing and it feels like the natural thing to do. Whether or not your work is published or even read by someone else matters not. I think the very act of doing, as I mentioned before, is sometimes the most important thing. From there, everything else flows. If you really want your book, article, poetry published, you'll get your arse in gear and make it happen. If not, then you won't. It's that simple.

And on a crappy note, I've read a few threads in this discussion about crap writing and I have to ask all those who DON'T write crap, but have read others who do: What is crap and who decides what is crap? Does crap sell and if it does, who buys crap? How can one be sure not to write crap? What if you love to write but all you write is crap? Stop writing crap? How?

I ask these aforementioned crap questions as the prelude to this question: How can something be crap if it comes from within? I don't read sci-fi because I don't enjoy it, but I wouldn't say it's all crap. I think too often writers who write romance or self-help books or "books-by-numbers" (as stated in one thread) are given a bum wrap as crap writers. Most people write what they know. They write what they identify with. And for everyone who writes something about the how to of underwater basket weaving or whatever else you may write, there's a person out there to read it.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that writers want to make sense of what they see, feel, hear and experience. They want to take that and give it to the world. "Here, look what I found," they say.

Writers want to connect and they do it best through words.

Posted by: Cathleen on March 2, 2004 08:36 PM

As I was doing a search, I found this website, and thought it would be quite interesting... Was I ever wrong!!!

When I was reading this, you make writng books seem almost next to impossible!!!!! Sure, it's hard, (I'm currently working on one) but it's not as hard as you make it look!!! Give us writers some credit!!!! Even thoguh they don't make much money, hey, where do you think magazines, newspapers, novels, and books come from????

Posted by: Spice Antony on March 5, 2004 04:02 PM

I only skimmed through this article, but i got the concept, and i find it more than vaguely depressing. I'm seventeen, and i'm just heading into college next semester. I'd been hoping to go into publishing in some way, and writing as a hobby that may become lucrative late in my life. You make it seem impossible, as though all of us hopefuls are thinking through our asses. I, personally, can't keep away from books or writing, so where does that leave me and others like me? For those of us who agree that yes, writing a book may be difficult and not very high-salary, but still would like to involve ourselves with writing? Dude, I'm just a teenager, and i agree you are probably right, but having met so many people who like to rant, I am going to say something. For every strong opinion that you have, give a bit of advice for those who will be discouraged by your opinion. You obviously have more experience then most, so why not produce as well as dismiss? People by nature have a tendency to dream. To take that away is harsh enough, at least leave a complacency check.

Posted by: Beth on March 25, 2004 02:26 AM

Hello There

Posted by: Alvia Watchamn on April 5, 2004 05:06 PM

I like this website. It gave me another perspective about wanting to become an author, but it didn't change my mind. I write for a passion. I am only 15 and am already a published poet. I think I am on my way, and I'm not stopping until I'm at the top.

Posted by: Kimberly Michelle Barta on April 8, 2004 10:43 AM

"Can anyone think of a similar industry -- where the people who produce the product don't generally make a living doing so? I can't, but maybe I'm overlooking something obvious..."

Musicians. The average musician takes in around 9 or 10 thousand US.

Posted by: Jay on April 12, 2004 05:47 PM

This article is the reaon they aren't as many successful books. If you don't believe then it will never happen. You have to tune out the negatives and the disbelivers, because they are stuck in their own egos and don't create at all. They just miscreate, everyone has got it in them to do whatever they want, but if they let others ego's and their own get in the way of true creation nothing is accomplished. The ones who accomplished not only are talented but they don't quit, because they know the truth, they are believers.

Posted by: Larry on April 13, 2004 07:54 PM

Larry again.

Sorry for the incorrect grammer in the previous post I was in a rush. My main point is, what you truly believe you can truly create. If you let things like time, doubt, the ego and fear guide you,then it most likely won't happen, or it won't be as true as you could make it. Tune out the chatter,the man made illusions of fear and time and any negative thought you may encounter and create, letting your soul and spirit free as god works through you. Let all the wonderful energy of the world flow through you, as you tune out the negative creations and doubts of life. Allow yourself to be magical, to be a creator, to be your own symphony. Then when you are done for the day. come back into the world where responsibility, and where the bills need to be paid and do what you need to. But Allow yourself to create with all love and all imagination, letting no fear, none of the worlds negative influences we create out of fear block you. Set yourself free, it's the truth it's who we are and it's in all of us. Set yourself free today and create as you were created.

Love to All

Larry

Posted by: Larry on April 13, 2004 08:10 PM

i am now equipped with the writing knowhow,knowing everything about the humps,gulleys and valleys.i am working on several political books i am writing for africa and beyond.i need to publish but money is talking shit.
stay the same and i wish to say my name.

Posted by: kudakwashe magezi on April 14, 2004 07:47 AM

I just stumbled across your website and found your comments very insiteful. Your professional pedigree would indicate you should know what you are talking about However, I will take issue with the reasons for writing a book. Does everyone that plays golf plane to play in the Masters one day? Does the dapper old gentleman at the bar trying to pick up the cute thing half is age think he's wasting time? Does the poor guy buying a lottery ticket to win hundreds of millions believe it's not worth a dollar to take a chance? Well of course all these questions are answered with an emphatic NO! They do it for the reasons that they get some pleasure from it and it still allows them to dream a little of "what if". That's the way I and anybody else who has ever attempted to write a book should look at doing so. They should also have a hard skin on them to deflect the bullets of criticizm and ridicule that they will almost inevitably get from friends and relatives. My experience in that regard is pretty much confirmed that the naysayers that attack you do so because they are jealous. They are jealous of the pleasure you get from writing and they are jealous of the possible talent that you pocess that they don't. But most of all they are intensely jealous of the possibility that you might actually succeed, even if it benefits them. They just don't want to have to admit that you succeded with your dreams and hopes and they didn't
I will go on writing my book and continuing to believe that the mountain can still be climbed and that I will perserver. But even if I don't I'm going to enjoy the ride. Bank on it!

Posted by: Jim Gibson on April 17, 2004 05:05 PM

I would like to know if you can help me publish a book. I know it will sell millions. I already talked to an author and she said it was very good. But of course she asked me if she could work on it with me and help publish it. But I told her that I would rather publish my book with the master publishers,Blowhards.

Posted by: Ashley Werstine on April 21, 2004 09:09 PM

i want to write my own story and publish it

Posted by: brittany on April 27, 2004 04:40 PM

i want to write my own story and publish it

Posted by: brittany on April 27, 2004 04:40 PM

Writing is life. And you just have to dare all the dangers and competitions on the way. You cannot succeed at a blink. That's the basic rule of life.

Posted by: Johnny Kings on May 1, 2004 11:26 PM

Wow. I'm always cowed by the sheer amount of variety displayed on the web; there, a 13 year-old boy hacker with his green-on-black self-gratification tool*, and here... I think this site contains some of the most intelligent discussion I've ever seen on a website.

I came across this website looking for information on book writing. I'm not "obsessed" with the idea of writing, or even ambitious (my ambitions lie elsewhere). My grasp of the English language is almost certainly not good enough for me to even consider making money from writing. No - the reason I'm looking into writing is as an educational tool. For the last 5 years I've worked in schools running computer networks (a somewhat interesting profession). Anyone who's worked in a school will know that it's absolutely impossible to do so for any length of time without becoming involved in the actual 'schooling' part. Which I really enjoy (something I rarely admit to myself!) So I'm looking into a way in which I can become involved, without actually teaching - since I value what little sanity I have managed to retain.

Re blogs vs books - One thing I've always noticed when working with computers and children, is that children (especially young children) will nine times out of ten respond far far better to a book than to a screen full of writing. Sure, you can have a "pretty" multimedia presentation which has big text and colours, but most children seem to prefer the feel of good old fashioned books. I have two younger brothers, both of whom are quite happy to play games on the computer (and display a considerable amount of control given their ages) but when it comes to reading, they much prefer to sit down with a book. I am much the same. I get confused very quickly by large blocks of text on a computer (although after reading this website, I'm wondering if that's due to the quality of writing, since the article and the comments were easy going). I totally agree with the person that pointed out you can't curl up on a sofa with a computer.

Oh, and for reference - I'm 23. :-)

Jon.

* (Joke, please don't take me too seriously!)

Posted by: Jon on May 6, 2004 04:54 PM

i want to write a book about my life to help girls out there that have been raped or been under sexual presure, i have been there seens i was 9yrs old. i know my story and and the things i did will help girls and women all over the world. thank u,,can any body tell me how can i start.

Posted by: B.Gonzalez on May 10, 2004 09:09 PM

Ok. Everything here is a pure lie! I agree with nothing that is stated! First: Some people do write books for pleasure, you don't know anything. Second, hardly is there ever an author who end's up paying more that what he/she will get in profits. Before you start to remove thoughs of publishing from future authors check your resources! Writing is a beatiful thing, and you should do it if your very dedicated! Don't let some ignorant take your dream away!

Posted by: Yanichel on May 17, 2004 06:33 PM

Not everything in life is about money.
The majority of people dont write for money they write for their passion in life. As an aspiring author my target is not fortune and fame but to put together a lifetimes thoughts which play a part in making me who i am. That record published or not will be a statement to the universe of what and who i am and where i stand in relation to the world. Stop being so negative.

Posted by: Simon Russell on May 28, 2004 11:39 AM

Bullshit! You are a killjoy.

Posted by: magpie on May 30, 2004 06:26 PM

I don't know about what your saying I really want to write a book. Hopefully make money, have fun, and it becomes a famous book. You sit there and be negative about the profession when you haven't writen a book yourself. Until you have the experience you should down writing books.

Posted by: John Samuel on June 3, 2004 02:07 PM

I have been attempting to write a "story" on and off (mostly off!) for the past year or so. It really is an outline of my own life for the first 30 years - I wouldn't go later than that 'cause if other people read it they may recognize themselves. What I have up to now has been reviewed by a couple of people who think it may have a little merit, but regardless of this,I have found it to be quite a cathartic experience and it is worth the effort to me just for that.
Once I polish it up a bit I may blog it just for feedback. I certainly never expect to make oney from it.
Currently it is too long for a short story and too short for a book (10,000 words) so I will thik about it for a bit longer.
While many of us keyboard thumpers have a dream of making a living from writing, very few actually manage it but we always hope.............
Cheers all

Posted by: Geeorge on June 3, 2004 09:12 PM

Whoa- somewhere the comments went from opinion on personal writing and the perils of making a living as a writer (Thanks M- very enlightening and well-said) to snarky replies and pleas for free agent services.

FOr twenty years I have wanted to be a published writer. I have learned that this is different than wanting to write. It's more like wanting to be a movie star but never doing any acting.

Loving to write/living to write is a different kettle fo fish- those folks will find a way to fit writing into their lives- some will publish, some won't and some will publish and fade from view. Few will be a huge success the first time out, even the tenth time out- think about it. When you walk into a book store, how many books in there grab your interest? How many books do you buy? One of them, I guarantee, will not be purchased by anyone else in that city EVER. One will be purchased by many. So, one fails to make a lving and one doesn't- That's the commercial side of the art form.

Again, thanks for drawing the distinction M-

Posted by: Danimac on June 6, 2004 03:30 AM

This is a nice site for people who are intrested in wrighting like me

Thank You,
Rainy Weathermen

Posted by: Rainy Weathermen on June 10, 2004 05:35 PM

what if you found in a fleamarket for sale a 1882 photo 16x20 bubble glass of outlaws two mean looking guys brothers thats right TURNED OUT TO BE frank&jesse JAMES.ON THE BACK WAS!
CLUES TO HIS TREASURE HE BURIED IN OKLAHOMA WICHITA MOUNT.I found it know I get to tell the story.Need help !!!!! EAR IS A LIT L STORY,JESSE ASKED THE INDIANS TO HELP ATTACK 2,000,000 GOLD 500 MEX ON FLAT TOP MOUNTAIN 1875/1876 12/25/75 LASTED 2DAYS MEX WENT TO OLD MINE TO COVER SO WOULD NOT FALL INTO US HANDS JESSE WAS WAITING AT OLD MINE...NO ONE MAN KNEW BUT ME KNOW TWO!
AND THEN THERE WHERE THREE.....

Posted by: todd buckmeier on June 14, 2004 08:03 PM

I want to write a book and am already published over the internet and in a few anthologies of poetry, since 1996. Any leads on editors, free grants and how to get them, or advice?

Posted by: Renee on June 18, 2004 02:27 PM

i don't want to write a book because i want money i want to write abook cause that would take up my spare time and that is something i want to do is write a book about my life and call it my lifestory not because bill cliton did i have been working on my book for 10 years. thank you.

Posted by: michael on June 28, 2004 04:37 PM

this is insane to think that you think that is all people want to write books for is money get a life man

Posted by: dee on June 28, 2004 04:40 PM

I am in the middle of writing a book and I would love to get it published, although I really don't know how or where to go. I am only 14 an I know that its a long shot but I really think that this book has a chance out there. I really don't think that everyone that writes is in it for the money, some are but I think that others like having there thoughts and memories read by people. Some people would like to be heard, I on the other hand am in for it because I think I can make a difference on how people look at vampyres and other so called "imaginary creatures". I am sick of everyone thinking that they're evil and twisted and I would love for people to just take a second look at them and think about what they're saying. I am not in it for the money I am in it for the words, it would be fantasic of I could change the mutalated look upon these "Dark beings".

Posted by: Nevall Jacobs on July 1, 2004 03:47 AM

I would like to put my life's experiences in a book. A book about a successful recovery. Please tell me how to get information on the steps I will need to get a book written and published. Information such as, copy rights,proof readings, publishing agent, etc..

Posted by: Dennis Wright on July 5, 2004 05:40 PM

It was a fascinating, sobering, read that more or less rung true from my limited experience with the industry. Its exhortations to write for the sake of reading and writing and not professional publication struck me as wise, and is more or less the reason why I became an amateur publisher.

But one thing sticks - a couple of hundred people making a living from it? If I can think of half a dozen from the comparitively tiny niche of Australian SF and Fantasy, that number has got to be too low - by at least an order of magnitude.

Posted by: David on July 14, 2004 11:18 PM

If very few people make a living from writing, does that mean no one should try to do so? If no one did, there would be no books in the world. Seems like those who recommend giving up, web publishing or vanity publishing (which is an utter rip off) just want to kill people's dreams - jealous of other people's talents perhaps? Yes, there is a lot of crap published these days but one man's crap is another man's literature. It would never have been published in the first place if it was THAT bad. I for one would go for the proper agent & editor publishing every time; it would be a validation of my 'talent' (if I have any) - to have someone say "Your work is so good I want to PAY you for it." Vanity publishing is so called for a reason. How pessimistic to suggest people who write are nutters who have no business trying to fulfill their dreams.

Posted by: Nichola on July 20, 2004 04:22 PM

Greetings,

I stumbled across this website wholly by accident and was very interested to read what everyone had to say. For one, 99% of it was correct English, and for another, it didn't degenerate into right-wing hysterics like a lot of the web posts I read these days.

That said -- and keep in mind I didn't read the entire set of comment -- I'm someone who has ambitions of being a writer, and am old enough and wise enough to have come to certain conclusions about what, realistically, is going to happen.

To wit:

1. I completed my first novel(la) before my 21st birthday, but have never followed up with trying to publish it for a variety of reasons.
2. I started a second novel which has been on the back burner for 12 and a half years now largely because...
3. I am in the middle of editing the first draft of a 600-page manuscript of a series of memoirs, and surprisingly enough, this is the one I think I am going to first attempt to get published.

I have a stable, well-paying job in the offense industry, but generally speaking, have made a decent, solid-with-benefits (excepting the occasional mass layoffs) living as a software engineer. But my true passion is music and then writing. The problems of one apply to both. So I'm not about to chuck my software career (though Lord knows there's days when I just can't take the mindlessness of it anymore), but here's what I've decided as I've matured from Bright-Eyed and Bushy-Tailed to Mature Adult:

1. Don't write expecting to make it big. See MB's initial post.
2. Write for yourself first and an audience second. Not in terms of writing audience, but in terms of your need to write.

Once you get yourself all the way to the point where you realize you probably won't be able to survive and make it, you might be freer to concentrate on the writing work itself as I have and realize you're either going to get lucky in the publishing world, or not. Same thing with finding a mate. In other words, you have to drop all your fantasies, get real, and then you'll be free to do things the way you see fit, and eventually, maybe hard work and perserverance will pay off. If I never get published (and I know the quality of my writing) after doing everything humanly possible, I'll realize it's the fault of the publishing world and society today, and I'll go to bed happy knowing I did my best. That's all you can hope for.

Regards,
Mike

Posted by: Mike Feher on July 21, 2004 06:04 PM






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