PatrickH: "Let's mess with ST. Say nice things about him! He'll crack before long."

Eh, sounds like the man's working his tail off - maybe we should hold off the abuse at least 'til school break. In the meantime there's always J. Christ Payback to abuse in the standard fashion.

JV - Yes and no. Women have the irritating tendency to not understand the necessary distinction between "public" and "private", and often degrade the workplace atmosphere by trying to personalize it inappropriately. Man, it would be great if employee handbooks/orientations had a part with stern warnings like this: "Any employee found wasting time, and imposing on the privacy of fellow workers, by continually organizing in-office birthday parties, or running constant baby/wedding-shower shakedowns, or imposing the showing of pictures of boyfriends, pets, or family members on captive indifferent cubicle-mates, will be subject to a savage beating followed by immediate dismissal; anyone found disregarding the sacred dictum that friendship is a freely chosen relation, not a necessary product of workplace propinquity, will be drawn and quartered."

On the other hand, men can be remarkably oblivious about how much boring "little personal dramas of the day" talk they actually produce. It has not been a rare experience to have some guy complain to me, "Why are women always telling you boring crap about people you don't know and don't give a crap about", and then immediately launch into blathering boring crap about his little personal dramas involving people I don't know and don't give a crap about. (Maybe they don't unload this stuff on other men, only on women, who generally don't mind or enjoy this sort of thing, so they don't even realize they're doing it.) To the credit of men, at least in the workplace, most of the time when I respond to this behavior by pointing it out and asking if they would have the slightest interest in listening to *me* babble about personal crap like that, they admit the justice of my complaint with good humor and stfu. Occasionally one of them will be a sulky bitch about this female's lack of enthusiasm for listening to his tedious gossip with wide-eyed sympathy, but I just mentally send him off to re-education class with the others, supra, who can't cotton the distinction between "private" and "public", and go about my business. (In private life, on the other hand, sometimes you just have to chuck overboard male friends and relatives who are discovered to possess an obliviously non-reciprocal notion of sympathetic listening. Then they act all injured and put-out, the solipsistic little sods.)

Spike: "I attempted to construct 'A Grand Taxonomy of Assholes' out of the various stratum of society I was forced to be around. Never finished it though."

I think a thorough treatment would require a collaborative effort.

Posted by: Moira Breen on May 26, 2009 12:44 PM

PatrickH: "Ross Douthat, whom I admire, has a typically moderate both-sides-of-the-issue measured-conclusion Douthat piece in the NYT about women today being unhappier than men, in reversal of what was common decades ago."

Unless they're not, really, or at least no more so than anybody else. The blog linked also had an entertaining series a while back debunking that "women speak, and need to speak, elebenty-billion more words than men per day" thing that was going around.

Not that I haven't known women who were nightmares of logorrheic vacuity, but I tend, from personal observation, to be skeptical of this "babbling women, taciturn men" scenario. It would be unusual if a man living with a woman wasn't often thinking, "good lord I wish she'd shut up, I really don't give a rat's about what she's babbling on about". Apparently it is also unusual for a man to realize it's very likely that a woman is often thinking the same of him when he's unloading. He likes to tell himself that he only opens his mouth to convey information and solve problems, not to babble about personal trivia, but, ha! like hell he doesn't (at least around women).

At any rate, my own internal "FOR MERCY'S SAKE WOULD YOU PLEASE CEASE YOUR INANE BABBLING!" switch is thrown by men as often as by women. (I've only actually said something like that once in my life, to a man. But I think it most every day.)

When I was young and simple, and not yet a ruthless judge of men, I always thought that the old warning "Men only want one thing" referred to sex. But after dating a while I discovered that this one nefarious thing they really had on their filthy little minds when they asked you out was to ...get you all alone, in a dark place, with limited escape routes, and...talk about themselves! Sometimes in hours-long, not a word-in-edgewise chunks. (Sound familiar? Yeah, well, you guys do that to. And it's really boring, just like when we do it. That's an abstract "you guys", of course. I'm sure the gentlemen of 2Blowhards are all too well-mannered to ever have subjected a date to such dreariness.)

Interestingly, my husband fits all those stereotypes of male speech patterns - reserved, never gossips, talks about stuff and things, not how he feels about stuff and things. Oh, he can talk a blue streak about what he's doing at work - but it's about what he's doing, not about himself or what other people did or said. That's why I married him. He's the only one of his kind.

Posted by: Moira Breen on May 26, 2009 2:34 PM

Guys can go on, god knows. About sports, their own egos, battles, etc. I know I sometimes marvel at how much my wife needs to analyze relationships, process the day, pull people apart, sniff around motives ("what did she really mean?"), etc. I'll think, Jesus, can I take any more of this? Then I'll realize that I just spent the last 15 minutes talking to her about how much I hate Final Cut.

My own theory about why guys have the impression that women yak more than men do is 1) maybe women do. There's this background hum of yak wherever women congregate. They babble, just like they nibble and fuss. And they do it on top of each other, so there's loads of soft-and-fuzzy counterpoint always happening.

2) Guys have an incredibly hard time processing the kind of babble women produce. It's all feathery, anxious, musing, wounded, emotionally charged ... Our ability to tune into this kind of thing, let alone find it interesting, is beyond-finite. We've got about five minutes worth of focus in us. So, because it's so exhausting, and because we just blank out after a few minutes, pretty soon all we're registering is "babble babble babble babble," and all of it presented with a kind of emotional stress that to us is really killing. We collapse under it and tune out, and then explain the phenomenon to ourselves by saying "Jesus Christ, doesn't she ever shut up?"

Dave Chappelle had a great routine about something similar. He was talking about how crazy women are to listen to each others' advice about dealing with men -- what do women know about what makes men happy? He cited some gals'-mag article promising "100 Ways to Make Your Man Happy!" as an example of the way women mislead each other. "Ladies, let me enlighten you. There aren't 100 ways to make a man happy. There are only four. Suck my dick. Play with my balls. Make me a sandwich. And don't talk so damn much." The audience -- gals and guys both -- roared in recognition.

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on May 26, 2009 3:29 PM

Michael,
You ask whether either gender may talk more than another. Look at the second chart at this link:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004965.html

I'm not reading/reviewing the study, but I do believe that based upon a chart like this, someone will conclude that women talk more than men........when in fact, it shows no real difference.

Posted by: jz on May 26, 2009 3:43 PM

Seriously, I can't be the only woman around who is introverted and not terribly chatty. I think you just don't notice us because we're, you know, NOT TALKING.***

Moira, your husband's theory of compatible assholeness is brilliant. I think I will steal it to describe my own marriage.

***Best magazine article of the decade is Jonathan Rauch's "Caring for your Introvert": http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch

Posted by: CyndiF on May 26, 2009 4:16 PM

Moira, I'd say the precentage of men who babble on about themselves is probably proportional to the percentage of women who are taciturn. In other words, both are the exceptions. Although you're probably right that when men do babble on about themselves, it's almost always to women. I know it's exceedingly rare for a guy to do so when talking to other men, in my experience. He's usually told he's an asshole within 3 minutes.

I'm with you 100% on all the socialization of the workplace crap. Holy shit do I and every male co-worker (and quite a few female ones) hate that shit. I think it's only the ra-ra, organizing type of women who enjoy it.

I've been an office drone most of my working life, but before that I worked in a few factory/warehouse types of jobs. Probably the most relaxed, liberating place I've ever worked was at a wine and beer distributor where I drove a truck delivering to stores. The warehouse, where the drivers and inside crew worked, was exclusively male. We'd pull stupid pranks, attempt to humiliate each other daily, yell and scream (there were 2 physical fights during the 10 months I worked there, none of those involved were fired or even suspended), and then kick back at the end of the day with a few beers from the give backs (either discontinued or damaged bottles). It was fucking awesome.

Of course, an atmosphere like that cannot be replicated on an enterprise level, but then maybe that's the problem with enterprise level businesses. Too damn big.

Posted by: Jv on May 26, 2009 4:32 PM

Yeah, men and women alike talk past each other plenty. My husband's always telling me the minutiae of some paperwork snafu he's trying to iron out; I only look like I care because I care about him, not because the paperwork problem itself is so spellbinding. lol.

Maybe the idea of the "Taciturn Man" comes from what I think is the wider range of all kinds of male attributes. You've got more really quiet ones AND more extremely talkative ones.

A silent woman is pretty unusual creature (but I know one! Friends brag when they get her to say more than four words together at an audible volume.)

But ultra-quiet guys aren't so uncommon.

There are guys who monopolize every conversation they're in, too. Sometimes that guy can be amusing and charming and serve as a sort of social lubricant, while other times he can be a tedious bore.

Posted by: omw on May 26, 2009 4:36 PM

I should add that most of my co-workers there were openly racist and homophobic, and that the only non-white dude was a massive Samoan guy. However, one of the drivers was openly gay. Of course, that didn't hold back any of the others from making fag jokes, but they also were never personally hostile to him and didn't exclude him from conversation. It helped that he was hilarious and ballsy and said if any fag jokes were to be made, they were to bade in front of him. He even brought his partner (an antiques dealer, of course!) to the Xmas party and the owner bought some furniture from him. Not sure how they would have acted with a black or Hispanic dude around. Probably similar, although man, it was non-stop racial slurs there.

Now, why did I bust my ass to get a degree and work in an office? Oh yeah, I was making 10 bucks an hour there. Still, I sometimes get nostalgic for that gig.

Posted by: Jv on May 26, 2009 4:45 PM

Moira,

I stand corrected!

I think a thorough treatment would require a collaborative effort. And we all know exactly who Spike's partner in that collaborative effort should be!

As for the drones who capture you and drone at you for hours, I seem to remember clio writing about the same thing happening to her. Hmmm...I remember with a shudder how my now-estranged wastrel pathological liar very-charming-years-ago-until-he-got-boring alpha male brother once talked at the now-extinct family's dinner table once for 45 minutes straight. No-one was even looking at him for the last, oh, 43 minutes (you know, heads in hands staring into eternity), but on he went!

So yes, there are male bores too. My God, what if I'm one of them!

P.S. J. Christ Payback shall be his name now and forevermore! I thank you, Moira. Though I doubt he will.

P.P.S. Shouting Thomas is becoming a nurse? He will of course in real life be the gentlest and kindest of nurses, but it's still a bit difficult to wrap my head around ST dressed like Renee Zellweger in Nurse Betty.

Posted by: PatrickH on May 26, 2009 5:20 PM

Michael, I am a little skeptical about that study that showed women don't talk more than men. They sure do in my experience. Maybe a few really long-winded male bores pump up the guys' average. Dunno. But my own wonderful SO sure talks more than I do.

Posted by: PatrickH on May 26, 2009 5:23 PM

More studies clearly need to be done. Oh, I do love studies of male and female behavior. They don't even have to be good studies, just so long as they set off a fun conversation.

Hey, another variable -- I wonder if yak-levels have changed with generations. One thing I register with the New Young Guys is that they vent. They vent all the time. They high-five each other for how brilliantly they vent. They vent until they're exhausted, and then they beam with unending self-pleasure.

So: are the New Young Guys more talkative than older guys? Any opinions, observations, guesses?

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on May 26, 2009 5:57 PM

Patrick:

If you're thinking who I'm thinking, such a collaboration will only produce a hissy fit, the likes of such that Moira has never seen coming from men.

That or a dance-off or something. I dunno.

MB:

I think you're on to something there. I definitely gripe more about personal slights and offenses at work than most older guys do, but then it may just be my personality, which isn't very typical of most guys.

Posted by: Spike Gomes on May 26, 2009 8:04 PM

and as for that Wolfers/Stevenson research on "women less happy than 40 years ago", THAT'S NOT WHAT THE DATA SUPPORTED!!
I followed some links to it’s statistical sources and another analysis of it. See here:

LINK

Cliff notes:
-General Social Survey with 3 subjective self-reported endpoints
-There is no statistical difference between the genders' happiness, either in 1970 nor any time through 2006.
-The statistical difference is in time trending only.
-The self reporting is inconsistent (poor retest correlation)

The interesting step is to watch how the statistical findings get translated (misrepresented) into journalistic conclusions. Also interesting how different journalistic translations are used on different readerships (NYT vrs. Slate)
Douthat is just another journalist misinterpreting the data.

Posted by: jz on May 26, 2009 10:03 PM

They don't even have to be good studies, just so long as they set off a fun conversation.

Awwwwe, Michael. I'm a bit disappointed here with you, our gracious host. We're more about yaking than finding "the truth"?

Posted by: jz on May 26, 2009 11:03 PM

In regard to ST, he and I have gone back and forth once or twice here on 2blowhards, but I think he's a real stand-up guy. He is obviously smart, talented, hard working, and honest. And he has obviously known true love - you can't beat that! He strikes me as the kind of guy who would be able to fix anything and who would have your back in a fight. I can see him putting down two or three attackers while you're still scrambling around with your first one, and him looking at you and saying, "What the hell is taking you so long?" I'd be pleased as punch to have a guy like him call me a friend.

Posted by: Laikastes on May 27, 2009 3:32 AM

"I'm with you 100% on all the socialization of the workplace crap. Holy shit do I and every male co-worker (and quite a few female ones) hate that shit. I think it's only the ra-ra, organizing type of women who enjoy it."

Sounds like somone has a case of the Mondays.

Peter Gibbons: Let me ask you something. When you come in on Monday and you're not feeling real well, does anyone ever say to you, "Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays"?
Lawrence: No. No, man. Shit, no, man. I believe you'd get your ass kicked sayin' something like that, man.

Posted by: CyndiF on May 27, 2009 8:36 AM

This has become one of the most enjoyable threads I've seen at 2B's in a while. Fun times!

Posted by: PatrickH on May 27, 2009 9:50 AM

"I'm with you 100% on all the socialization of the workplace crap. Holy shit do I and every male co-worker (and quite a few female ones) hate that shit. I think it's only the ra-ra, organizing type of women who enjoy it."

CyndiF: Sounds like somone has a case of the Mondays.

Count me among men sick of it.

Just about every man with any balls, who's not a big time PC sycophant, is, in my experience. This is not restricted to conservatives.

Posted by: doug1 on May 27, 2009 1:01 PM

Fred's article about the newspaper biz evokes a strange truth: the world is much more efficient and safe with the massive invasion of the job market by women, and it is incredibly more sanitized and boring.

Don't know what to make of this tradeoff.

Much of the downsides of women in the workplace would be rectified by ceasing to cater to them so much in PC and workplace standards of decorum and what not. Much more rough and tumble should be allowed.

We'd not get all the way back to Fred's world no (and there's things beyond feminism and PC standing in the way of that also), but it could be way less prissy.

Posted by: Doug1 on May 27, 2009 1:24 PM

"CyndiF: Sounds like somone has a case of the Mondays.

Count me among men sick of it.

Just about every man with any balls, who's not a big time PC sycophant, is, in my experience. This is not restricted to conservatives. "

Oh, I hate it too. (Not that I experience it much in a scientific environment.) I just couldn't pass up the chance to quote from my favorite movie.

Posted by: CyndiF on May 27, 2009 4:48 PM

Possibly pertinent:

LINK

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on May 27, 2009 10:27 PM

Spike: If you're thinking who I'm thinking, such a collaboration will only produce a hissy fit, the likes of such that Moira has never seen coming from men.
That or a dance-off or something. I dunno.

That cracked me up. But which of you will dance the tango de la muerte, and live?

My money's on you, Spike.

CyndiF: Sounds like somone has a case of the Mondays.

Nobody did those office ladies quite like the Kids in the Hall. Can't seem to find that particular one on youtube, though.

Posted by: Moira Breen on May 28, 2009 6:54 PM

Kids in the Hall: Heh, I can just picture Dave Foley saying the Monday thing. And yes, if someone said that to me, well There Will Be Blood, so to speak.

Posted by: PatrickH on May 29, 2009 9:40 AM

CyndiF: Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays.

Nobody did those office ladies quite like the Kids in the Hall. Can't seem to find that particular one on youtube, though.

That's cause it's from Office Space, not KitH:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v90q0ydxMI

Posted by: CyndiF on June 1, 2009 12:24 PM

Kids in the Hall did it too. The two Kathys skit. Kath with a K and Cath with a C. Ha. Great stuff.

Posted by: JV on June 1, 2009 1:14 PM

That's cause it's from Office Space, not KitH:

No, there's a KitH office-lady sketch with a "looks like somebody's got a case of the Mondays!" (or very similar) line. (You would generally be safe assuming a senile misattribution on my part, but I've never seen "Office Space", so I wouldn't have picked it up there. Now, that I may have completely fabricated this "memory" of a non-existent sketch - we can't dismiss that possibility.)

PatrickH: I remember with a shudder how my now-estranged wastrel pathological liar very-charming-years-ago-until-he-got-boring alpha male brother once talked at the now-extinct family's dinner table once for 45 minutes straight. No-one was even looking at him for the last, oh, 43 minutes...

Hey, you've got one of those, too!

But I didn't mean this kind of bore. (I don't think anybody's arguing that men can't be bores!) What this is is the otherwise reasonably non-boring male, who is never tediously self-absorbed and self-referential in male or mixed-sex groups, but who does inflict that boring "little personal dramas of the day" chitter-chatter when one-on-one with a woman. (While being oblivious that they're doing exactly what they themselves knock woman for doing. "What, you mean you don't find these detailed stories about office pissing-matches and personal dramas, among stupid people you don't even know, absolutely fascinating? But surely you don't think my having an asshole boss is an experience anything like your having an asshole boss, do you?")

Posted by: Moira Breen on June 1, 2009 1:55 PM






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