MB:

Don't get me started on that one. I work on a college campus, so I get to have the idiocies of the left shoved into my face everyday, quite literally since they put a draconian on-campus smoking ban in place. Frankly I thank the late 60s for shoving the more vocal left-wing into a permanent stage of ideological immaturity (though I think the conservatives went and refined the parts of it that worked for them).

All that said, I really can't ever in good conscience become a Republican. All the parts I liked about them were chucked a long time ago, and social conservativism and neo-liberal economic policies are not amenable with my analysis of the facts at hand or my system of values, but I digress.

What's interesting is the amazing amount of racial politics that goes into this whole mess of beans. Hang around Latino neighborhoods in L.A. and ostensibly you'll get a majority (but by no means dominant) view that there should be regularization, which is balanced by the notion that there's just too damn many people in the neighborhood with no personal investment in it, people may go on and on about how horrible East L.A. is, what with all the Hispanic mercados and bodegas, but when you compare it to places across town where all the small businesses are run by folks who don't live in the vicinity, it's important to note in a way, there is personal investment in building the community, something that can be really hard when you have a whole bunch of impoverished young guys on the wrong side of the law.

However, when you take into consideration how the debate is framed to those who have been here for awhile or descended from them, not to mention the more emotionally excitable parts of the left it's much easier to create a reaction of "Somos Todos los Americanos" with guys who intend to sleep ten to room, work far under any livable wage and then leave after three years, than to have them say "Yeah, maybe this isn't the best for us who have to live in this situation, and it really isn't the best for them, either."

The Mech Eye:
I actually agree with you on most of your points. There's definately way more fire than light in this damn debate, which is irritating, since it's such an important and difficult one to resolve. I came to my position because I actually do give a damn about the working class and the environment. I think this situation came about partially because of the great work done busting unions and other bastions of blue collar America in the name of free trade. I digress once, more, however.

You're absolutely right, however. As long as businesses and the upper/upper middle classes continue to patronize illegal labor, it's going to remain a problem. So, how can we change this? I say we go in the exact damn opposite route than the sort of useless populism all sides use in the debate.

I've made progress actually by doing so we left-wing friends and co-workers. When they say that immigrants do labor no American will do, I ask them what does that say about how Americans value both certain kinds of essential labor as the well as the value of those who work it? Are they stating that certain kinds of labor doesn't deserve a living wage, or that it's okay to essentially relegate odious jobs to people who take them because they have no real options where they come from. Is this right for society and is it right to the people doing it?

In other words, when people start seeing what is going on as a way the better off can take advantage of folks who have less ability of recourse and not as a matter of "the poor and huddled masses" or "the destruction of the American way of life", it'll be easier to talk about rationally and by extension develop things we can do about it. We also need to revalue certain kinds of labor, though this is something that goes outside of just the immigration issue and into others.

sN:
Thank you sincerely for raising the level of dialogue in this debate. I'm not quite sure what people of all races and beliefs would find offensive in what you just said, or the plethora of reasonable and feasible options towards resolving the problem you laid on the table. It seems to me that you'd be absolutely perfect for changing people's minds on this issue. I applaud you on your level-headed and even-handed assessment.

Posted by: Spike Gomes on October 5, 2007 1:46 AM

Spike, get a blog going. I'd read it.

Posted by: the patriarch on October 5, 2007 10:40 AM

Thanks for your thoughts, Spike. Although I do quibble with you giving credit to sN, who ended one of his last posts describing illegal immigrants as a "tumor." I am unsure how raises the level of dialog in this matter.

DU

Posted by: The Mechanical Eye on October 5, 2007 12:14 PM

A quick note of appreciation to all of you for interesting info and ideas. Busy day, but I'm enjoying your thoughts.

One minor thing? I'm with you where deploring the level at which most immigration discussions are conducted, and I'd probably be even more vehement about this if I ever gave talk-radio a listen. At the same time ... Your exasperation with sN strikes me as misplaced. He's a private citizen, he feels he's being screwed over by irresponsible elites, he feels his home is being invaded, he knows damn well he isn't being consulted about any of this ... Plus, he has numerous good reasons to feel all these feelings -- by no means is it unreasonable for him to feel screwed-over. So why shouldn't he squawk? Asking a person who's being raped to, y'know, discuss the experience in a collected, suave, and calm way seems to me a little unreasonable, if not slightly cruel.

I exaggerate a bit, I guess, but all that much? I've read sober demographers and historians saying that the migration we're seeing from Mexico to the U.S. is unprecedented in modern history, that it's one of the major population-developments ever --. and of course it's all happening quite against the will of a solid majority of the current inhabitants of the US. Should they really be expected not to feel miffed and outraged? It seems to me that it'd be hard to make too much of this.

In any case, political protests, like protests of any kind, don't begin with urbane chitchat, they begin with urgent expressions of horror, upset, etc. Let 'em happen, sez I. There'd have been no civil rights movement without a lot of initial anger and indignation; same with the anti-Vietnam war protests. Feelings pursued as an end in themselves can certainly go bad, but it's often via messy feelings that we first learn about what's going on, and to that extent (as well as others) they're valuable, and merit respect.

I think the dislike we all have for the low level of the public discussion should really be directed elsewhere: at 1) the arrogant and uncaring elites who are inflicting this situation on us in the first place, and 2) the big-media outfits that (in the case of the respectable press) are suppressing a needed discussion or (in the case of the low-rent media outlets) inflaming and exploiting it.

But private citizens letting us know how they feel about what's being done to them? Given polite society's taboos against raising these subjects, I think they're even being pretty brave. Bravo to them. Give 'em a listen, and treat 'em with some respect. Or so sez I, anyway.

Posted by: Michael Blowhard on October 5, 2007 12:43 PM

Gentlemen:
My response is extreme. But please, name a factual error in any of my statements? I have made none. Respond to any of my points.You haved not. It is only be NICE. And if there were a democratic process, I could see your point. But I've pointed out that the system is rigged, so that opposition to the invasion cannot win. It is ILLEGAL. Technically, it should be that my side has won, so if this is victory for us what will defeat look like when -- as it will likely happen -- we reach that point.

I know we all want to turn up our noses when the white guy joins the race game, but it seems to be a game that if you sit out you wil find yourself sitting in a second-class citizen position. And Im not sure I can count on you guys to prevent that if it ever happens. And forgive me for thinking a man should not bet his and his family's future on promises that it will all be fine when my eyes show me that it will not be.

I don't take these positions lightly. But what if I accept your positions. Then: I accept Spanish as a language of the United States; I accept the Mexican-American leaders who say the Mexican kids need to learn of THEIR culture not some Eurocentric education, so I accept the washing away of U.S. history because the education elite knows best; I accept water rationing because resources will not keep up with this huge growth; I accept the gang problem that kills people every weekend in my city; I accept my economic value being reduced because I am not bilingual; I accept my medical system being turned into one big waiting line; the list goes on.
In return, I will be a respectable guy in your eyes. But wait...even that doesn't work. Because, they were already calling me a Nazi for just wanting immigration laws --that are law -- to be enforced. Feel free to battter me about, I do listen and try to rethink my arguments. I do feel a bit uncomfortable coming to this fighting position. But do give me the courtesy of arguments. At least, tell me how it will work out for the better.

Posted by: sN on October 5, 2007 1:12 PM

I believe Spike was being sarcastic in his "praise" of sN.

Posted by: the patriarch on October 5, 2007 1:15 PM

Spike Gomes,

If I change my name to Gonzales, breed pit bulls, run a taco stand, and listen to ranchera music at ear-splitting levels all night, will you then permit me to say, "a vast breeding brown hoard is coming to destroy the English language and American values"?

Posted by: Rick Darby on October 5, 2007 2:37 PM

MB:

Well, the problem with venting as I see it, is that nowadays people confuse venting with actually providing solutions and a balanced appraisal of fact. By all means, be mad as hell and don't take it anymore, but if you're not going to take something anymore, after you get the rage all out of your system, sit down and calmly think about how to go about doing so. It's important to note that the elites have been able to screw folks over by being shrewd calculating (not to mention cold-bloodedly manipulative) thinkers. You want a chance against them? You have to best them at their own game.

Passion without control, action without critical thought is like trying to run the Boston Marathon without training up for it. Your ambition and goal is noble, but you're not going to finish, you'll probably hurt yourself badly in the process, and most folks will think you're a fool.

sN:
Let me take you at your word then from your two posts. I want you to cite me at least three elected Mexican-American politicians who state that "you and yours" (which I assume to be white Americans) will "get yours" once Mexicans are ascendant in power here in the USA. Note I said elected Mex-Am politicans, not the chair of Chicano studies at ASU.
I want you to cite a Mexican or or Mex-Am educational official who states that Mexican youth should only be educated in their native culture and language and not Eurocentrism (which by extension I suppose means that they'll be taught in Nahuatl or Maya instead of that foul European language of Spanish and eschew any of the modern maths and sciences, excepting astronomy perhaps).

Cites must be able to be looked up to the original source so as to check context. I'm willing to do the footwork if it's hard copy. If you can provide that, then I will furnish you with an apology and assert that everything you have stated in your posts is actual fact instead whatever it is now.

Also, I should note, that the only person saying "Nazi" here is yourself, so I don't think it qualifies under Godwin's Law yet.

Rick Darby:
If I change my name to Goins, convert to Southern Baptism, proselytize to people who have the gall to be atheists, let my weekend barbeque smoke blow into my neighbor's windows, and leave my gigantic pickup truck parked in front of the street fire hydrant, will you permit me to say that assholes come in all races, creeds and colors?

patriarch:
I really wish I knew how to setup a blog like this one MB runs. I'm not too technically inclined in coding and network stuff, so I wouldn't have the first notion of where to begin.

Posted by: Spike Gomes on October 5, 2007 4:13 PM

Let me know when millions of Southern Baptists cross the border illegally, tell the world that this is their country and the rest of us had better get used to it, use our hospital emergency rooms for free (to them) medical care and send the taxpayers the bill, and breed like minks. Then you are welcome to call them assholes.

Posted by: Rick Darby on October 5, 2007 5:55 PM

Rick Darby:
If I recall correctly, that wasn't the original way you framed your strawman argument. In any case, one third of Mexicans in America are actually evangelicals and Pentecostals, so there is some truth to what you said, though not in the way you perhaps originally thought of it!

BTW, the blasting music is more likely to be Cypress Hill than Ranchero. Cholos aren't really into Selena FYI.
Now that you've got that out of your system, would you like to engage in how to remove the root causes of why thousands are surging across the border rather than attacking those who do it? It's like blaming a pigeon infestation at your house on the pigeons when the crazy rich guy down the street is dumping breadcrumbs all over the neighborhood. Sure, you can set up all the traps you want, wrap your house in chicken wire, bring in owls to hunt them, shoot them, poison them (and maybe take out your neighbor's dog in the process by accident), but they're going to keep coming unless you and everyone else get the guy to stop dumping breadcrumbs!

Posted by: Spike Gomes on October 5, 2007 8:05 PM

Mr. Gomes:
LA Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and former Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamante refused to denounce MECHA. You know what MECHA's agenda is. Now, name one politician who has denounced MECHA. Art Torres of Calif. at a speech told his audience that he explained to white senators that he voted for affirmative action because "you're going to need them." Fabian Nunez "these rednecks will think twice before pushing forward anti immigration legislation -- he denied he said that to be fair. I am speaking of my observations. And I stand by those observations.

If you want to say you won a debating point by my failure to provide citations, so be it. But what is your point? Are you denying Mexico feels it has a claim to Calif. and part of the Southwest? This is what I heard and saw at the recent demonstrations. You tell me not to use a chairman of Chicano studies from a university as an example-- what is a Chicano, what do they stand for? Why is it at a U.S. university? Your own questioning makes my point if you would put some thought into it. Are you saying there is no strong element of race involved in Mexican-American politicians wanting a state to become majority Mexican? Sure, they'd have the same reaction if it were 15 million Polish illegal-immigrants --right? President Calderon said Mexico does not end at its border. Remember all the Mex-Am politicians denouncing that. Come on --Mexico does not end at its border----can you see why your trying to win a debating point is just crap to me? Mexico does not end at its border -- oh im sure ol' presidente is just an isolated case, except the last ol' presidente was saying the same sort of warlike garbage.

As for the use of Nazi racist, hater, again I heard and saw it at pro illegal demonstrations and demonstrations against those calling for enforcement of immigration laws. Ive been called it when I argued points on popular left blogs. And I've seen the kids regurgitate it when they were doing walk outs in Calif. schools. I didn't mean to confuse anyone into thinking I was applying it to this site.

As for education it was last week I read on Drudge a newspaper article on Oregon schools using Mexian curriculum; the article said it was done in oother places and mentioned a few. And it has been the last 10 or 15 years Ive constantly read and heard of the multicultural (read down with whitey) education that has been imposed on kids. Of course, I usually hear it praised as it appears in the mainstream media. I was talking to a white 17-year-old girl who told me she "wasn't anything," she had no ethnicity unlike Mexicans, blacks. I really don't want to have to rehash the multiculturlism in teaching. But, don't find it strange that I oppose this White Guilt Fiesta, and don't find it strange that I find it threatening.

And I guess as always, we will just ignore: water, the gang problem, the drop out rates, the cost to taxpayers of high school drop outs in benefits over a lifetime, the overcrowding the two languages....

Posted by: sN on October 6, 2007 3:19 AM

sN:

Proper citation means that you give me the source of the information, not "what you heard" or a vague place to go get it. That way I can determine context of said statement and whether or not it matches what you're saying from an objective standpoint. The closest thing you gave me is a proper reference to the Drudge Report, with no link, and considering how many he posts, I might as well be sifting through 20 or so articles.

As for what you said, I already found one link from an Aztlan group calling Villaraigosa a "scumbag" in less than a minute. Apparently those ethnic nationalists think he's a gigantic sellout. Hardly brothers in arms there, eh?
http://aztlan.net/oraculations.htm

Within another two minutes, a news article later than all the frantic fapping of the wingnut set where Villaraigosa *does* disavow the tenets of Mecha:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1402049/posts

Really, with that much problems within just the first part of the first "citation" you post, you'll forgive me if I eschew doing the footwork for the rest of it. You don't have to eat an entire bad apple to know it's rotten.

Believe what you want. You'd hardly be the first person to have your perception of fact derived from your ideological priors, just excuse me if I can't take what you have to say seriously.

Now if I'm correct (and I truly hope I'm not) in my assessment of your personality, you're going to post something about me ignoring the truth right before my eyes, how everything in this nation is doomed because of the tortilla eaters, etc etc etc, because your type assumes that getting the last and loudest word in means winning the debate. I, however, am of the notion that once it's gotten to this point, the best thing to do is stick a fork into it and call it done. TTFN.

Posted by: Spike Gomes on October 6, 2007 6:25 PM

I am glad to see that one still has to renounce such stuff to be mayor of one of the largest U.S cities. And I was wrong on that. Of course, I doubt if David Duke when running for an office would say he disagrees with "most" of the KKK's "precepts" that you would be holding it up to mean anything. In fact, one would imagine you and I would get a chuckle out of that? Two days before that announcement when asked about MECHA, Antonio V. replied that he was in the Boy Scouts, too. So forgive me for believing that there is a touch of political expediency in his statement. And there is the patented Clintonesque wiggle room in the words he chose while making it. So, I dont want to yell and be the "Loudest" -- I'm just asking for a quiet reflection on that in context, listening to the exact words used, and in the situation he was in.

I do apologize for not having citations, but I am sharing observations. I don't sit there writing down stuff every time. Are you reading papers and watching TV (magazines, radio, Web) and you are going to tell me you have not seen activists and educators saying kids need to be educated about their OWN people and on many of these occasions it goes further and they say the kids need to be educated by their own race/ethnicity. Seriously, just tell me no you have not seen or heard that? Because I see it all the time. In fact, the schools may beat the press and the govt. for the PC title, especially if one throws in the colleges. And, please, just say "No, Ive never heard such stuff." In my years of observation, I'd say to miss all that you must have been at least in a semi-vegetative state.

Also, I have not heard you make any statements as to why we should let the invaders in. Seems like a pretty basic one for anyone opposing what is the law.
And why do you say you will ignore me. Yet, I am the ideologically blind one? What ideology do I follow?
You go on to say that I am afraid the "tortilla eaters" --words I did not or would not say -- are going to ruin the country. Well, I say this there is 10 to 15 million (who knows) coming into this country. That is enough to have a huge impact. No one cay say it will not have a huge impact.
Now, there are three options: 1 They help the country. 2 They hurt it. 3 It is a wash.
I say they hurt. You say you dont like me. All I am asking you is to tell us why they help, and why the negatives should be overlooked. Or --to tell the truth, I m not sure you think they help? You would just like me to have sugarcoated my arguments to make them more palatable? And I might be willing to do that if this Repbulic were acting as one, but it isn't.

And me turning red and mumbling that calif is getting awfully crowded, (clears throat) maybe we should slow down immigration (looks around the room to see if that statement fell on folks' ears like a turd). Wife changes subject so we can be nice respectable white people. Im not really seeing that process as all that effective. So, pardon me for throwing a few punches in what I believe is a fight for survival on many levels for my language, my culture, my country.

And just for context, Ive dated Mexican-Americans, worked with them and lived with them. I can tell you this if there were 20 million Chinese coming into Mexico, Mexicans would not be speaking like Spike Gomes, in fact, they'd be doing things that make me look like a moderate. I don't seek to deny Mexicans legal entrance to this country. I expect the people of a Republic to decide the numbers of entry, not Bush, not Home Depot and not the chicken slaughterhouse. And I am the extremist?

Posted by: sN on October 7, 2007 2:03 AM

Yes,speaking of water shortages,I was watching some Orange County, California beurocrats, discussing the States water shortage. But, fear not!! They then went on to discuss--how to cut down on the never ending illegal immigration population in California that causes water shortages? No.

Rather, they were discussing the latest water reclaimation system that they were going to proudly have in place in a few years that would solve the shortage. Yes, how to solve the shortage by reclaiming Orange County sewer water. Just delightfull and a perfect example of the beurocratic mind.

Posted by: Bobby on October 7, 2007 3:09 AM

MB:
I marvel at the press coverage -- or lack of it -- of the immigration isssue. This last time there was an actual uprising of the people to defeat the legalization legislation. It was perhaps one of the greatest political stories of the last 20 years. People going against both parties, the chamber of commerce, the race lobby the big corporations and more. Tell me a political David and Goliath story that rivals that one?

There were a few stories crediting talk radio, but it was actually talk radio being swept along by a populist tsunami. Even when hosts tried to change the subject, callers would not let them. It was people demanding their representatives fall into line; it was actually Mr/Mrs/Ms American Voices Go to Washington story. The press seems to have entirely missed or ignored the story. My big city paper actually interviewed some immigrants, had a few quotes from the pro legalization crowd including one horrible harrangue by Ted Kennedy and a quote by Jeff Sessions on the defeat of the bill. That was it. You see we still don't exist in the eyes of the press.

Posted by: sN on October 7, 2007 3:21 AM

sN-- if Nunez denied he said that, about rednecks,etc. he is lying. In fact, he is right on tape saying it. He and his ilk constantly say these things, when they think Americans aren't listening. Here is an honest statement for you, Nunez, Villaraigossa, Torres and the rest of the revanchisht Mechistas, would not even own a donkey if they were still in Mexico. They owe everything, EVERYTHING, to the European creators of this society. There is an old saying, "we hate those, to whom we are indebted. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

Posted by: Bobby on October 7, 2007 3:29 AM






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